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Interesting. This goes some way to addressing an issue I had been wondering about recently. I am a UK citizen, not US, so have little familiarity with US milita

Interesting. This goes some way to addressing an issue I had been wondering about recently. I am a UK citizen, not US, so have little familiarity with US military. With the recent news on Trump declaring that Greenland should belong to the US I was wondering what the US military would do if ordered to carry out an unprovoked attack on an allied nation. This does seem to suggest that there is a very real possibility that they could refuse.

jdsalaro 2y ago
> This does seem to suggest that there is a very real possibility that they could refuse. Not at all, on a societal level the US has been increasingly constructed as a huge, intricate, Prisoner's Dilemma where everyone, allegedly, has all to lose and noone, allegedly, has a say in the matter, therefore everyone complies with whatever the system, or media, asks of them. Everyone thinks they're the victim, everyone thinks civic duty is something the oppressor is responsible for, not them personally, therefore everyone is free to be an oppressor themselves. This problem will be intensified whenever, as we've seen elsewhere, the military starts being transformed from within and sycophants are put in positions of power.
- Validark 2y ago
  This seems like a very interesting comment, if only I could make sense of it. Could you elaborate and/or give examples of what you're describing?
  - thq123127 2y ago
    There is freedom of speech or freedom to disobey on paper. But most people cannot use these, because the system is set up so that they'll be fired, disgraced and probably barred from future jobs. It is fine and encouraged to say "Trump is an idiot" or "Harris is an idiot", but better think twice before engaging with actual issues like whistleblowing or disobeying an unlawful order. Just watch how topics of poor white MAGA voters who are being sold out are avoided and flagged on all sides. No one wants to hear about that. People like Bannon (a millionaire) can make some performative speeches, but nothing will happen.
    - throwway120385 2y ago
      > Just watch how topics of poor white MAGA voters who are being sold out are avoided and flagged on all sides. No one wants to hear about that. What are you talking about here? Please share more about this.
freeone3000 2y ago
An unprovoked invasion of a foreign country is a legal order.
- breckenedge 2y ago
  No, congress would have to declare war first. Article I, Section 8.
  - modzu 2y ago
    take note of the last 20 years. special military operation.
    - breckenedge 2y ago
      It would still require congressional approval after 60 days, unless Al Qaida suddenly showed up in Greenland. Despite congress being majority R, I just don’t see them playing along with this. Trump says these things to get a rise out of people. He’s fueled by reaction. You can’t tell if he’s ever being serious, and I doubt even he knows if he’s being serious most of the time. Getting enraged by his actions is his goal, and he’s very good at playing his opponents into blunders this way. Best to not play along.
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        > It would still require congressional approval after 60 days "After 60 days" is very different from "first". And, since the President can unilaterally extend the timeline by 30 days, its actually 90 days, even if the War Powers Act is valid (an unresolved Constitutional question.) And, in practice, it doesn't even require that if you don't have active majorities in Congress opposing the action; see the NATO-Yugoslavia war and the failure of legal challenges by members of Congress against it predicated on the War Powers Act limitations, because of lack of standing.
      - pphysch 2y ago
        > unless Al Qaida suddenly showed up in Greenland If invading Greenland was an actual real goal, something like this would definitely "happen", to manufacture the necessary pretext. Way cheaper than the alternatives.
alexey-salmin 2y ago
First time, huh?
darkerside 2y ago
I think you need to better define the order. It is unlikely to simply be to "attack" Greenland. If they were ordered to make landfall and establish a base of operations, that is very different from bombing military or civilian targets.
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  The U.S. already has a base of operations on Greenland, under agreement with Denmark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pituffik_Space_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pituffik_Space_Base

jdsalaro 2y ago

> This does seem to suggest that there is a very real possibility that they could refuse. Not at all, on a societal level the US has been increasingly constructed as a huge, intricate, Prisoner's Dilemma where everyone, allegedly, has all to lose and noone, allegedly, has a say in the matter, therefore everyone complies with whatever the system, or media, asks of them. Everyone thinks they're the victim, everyone thinks civic duty is something the oppressor is responsible for, not them personally, therefore everyone is free to be an oppressor themselves. This problem will be intensified whenever, as we've seen elsewhere, the military starts being transformed from within and sycophants are put in positions of power.

Validark 2y ago
This seems like a very interesting comment, if only I could make sense of it. Could you elaborate and/or give examples of what you're describing?
- thq123127 2y ago
  There is freedom of speech or freedom to disobey on paper. But most people cannot use these, because the system is set up so that they'll be fired, disgraced and probably barred from future jobs. It is fine and encouraged to say "Trump is an idiot" or "Harris is an idiot", but better think twice before engaging with actual issues like whistleblowing or disobeying an unlawful order. Just watch how topics of poor white MAGA voters who are being sold out are avoided and flagged on all sides. No one wants to hear about that. People like Bannon (a millionaire) can make some performative speeches, but nothing will happen.
  - throwway120385 2y ago
    > Just watch how topics of poor white MAGA voters who are being sold out are avoided and flagged on all sides. No one wants to hear about that. What are you talking about here? Please share more about this.

freeone3000 2y ago

An unprovoked invasion of a foreign country is a legal order.

breckenedge 2y ago
No, congress would have to declare war first. Article I, Section 8.
- modzu 2y ago
  take note of the last 20 years. special military operation.
  - breckenedge 2y ago
    It would still require congressional approval after 60 days, unless Al Qaida suddenly showed up in Greenland. Despite congress being majority R, I just don’t see them playing along with this. Trump says these things to get a rise out of people. He’s fueled by reaction. You can’t tell if he’s ever being serious, and I doubt even he knows if he’s being serious most of the time. Getting enraged by his actions is his goal, and he’s very good at playing his opponents into blunders this way. Best to not play along.
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      > It would still require congressional approval after 60 days "After 60 days" is very different from "first". And, since the President can unilaterally extend the timeline by 30 days, its actually 90 days, even if the War Powers Act is valid (an unresolved Constitutional question.) And, in practice, it doesn't even require that if you don't have active majorities in Congress opposing the action; see the NATO-Yugoslavia war and the failure of legal challenges by members of Congress against it predicated on the War Powers Act limitations, because of lack of standing.
    - pphysch 2y ago
      > unless Al Qaida suddenly showed up in Greenland If invading Greenland was an actual real goal, something like this would definitely "happen", to manufacture the necessary pretext. Way cheaper than the alternatives.

alexey-salmin 2y ago

First time, huh?

darkerside 2y ago

I think you need to better define the order. It is unlikely to simply be to "attack" Greenland. If they were ordered to make landfall and establish a base of operations, that is very different from bombing military or civilian targets.

snowwrestler 2y ago
The U.S. already has a base of operations on Greenland, under agreement with Denmark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pituffik_Space_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pituffik_Space_Base