3 ms·

Inconsistencies make sense. But it also seems to fine to say "we aren't paying out any more money for any inconsistent records till the person comes forward an

Inconsistencies make sense. But it also seems to fine to say "we aren't paying out any more money for any inconsistent records till the person comes forward and gives us the info to fix the records". Obviously, if such a thing is done at scale, you need to have the staff to handle all the phone calls etc in a timely manner.

Muromec 2y ago
It's not the fault of the person, there is no legal basis to do so and it simply doesn't matter. Eventually everyobe just does anyway.
bawolff 2y ago
Until what? The person produces records that don't exist? Someone born in a cabin in the middle of the woods 90 years ago is not neccesarily going to have "info" to fix their birth records (especially if non religious, so there are no church records). They could give you a date, but they aren't going to be in a position to prove it.
- londons_explore 2y ago
  In which case you review the details they can provide, and if it looks likely legit you re-enable it. However if their name is "bobby tables" and their date of birth is 35th January 1806, and their only proof of that is a handwritten note with star signs, you disable it till either more proof is provided or a court makes a final decision.
  - throwanem 2y ago
    Meanwhile here in the real world, when the US government arbitrarily refuses to honor its agreements - obligations it has in good faith entered into, and which no other party first violated - the dollar cracks. Only a very stupid American (or Englishman) wants that. I concede there are many very stupid Americans (and Englishmen) to the fore just now. They are sadly no less stupid for such prominence.
  - a0123 2y ago
    "You just re-enable it". What world do you people live in? You do realise that the amount of "fraud" being discovered barely registers as a rounding error, right? That there is no significant amount being "wasted" here, right? And none of that is about government efficiency or "saving money". Right? Now that Elon has discovered all that fraud, how is the economy working out for you? How is the price of eggs doing? Have you finally become a millionaire now that all this red tape is gone? When is it supposed to happen? Why aren't you rich yet?
- jandrese 2y ago
  You are going to demand that these very old, often suffering from dementia, strokes, Alzheimer’s, etc… Americans go out to the state capital to defend their existence in front of a literal death panel? If they get their benefits cut off they die. Old people vote. There is no way Congress goes along with a scheme like this.
- figassis 2y ago
  I assume if social security is being paid and being spent, someone has the ability to manage a bank account, and that person then has a bank account, and the bank has collected enough kyc info to satisfy this correct? If not, at least there is a person on the other side that is mentally able to verify their identity.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    > not, at least there is a person on the other side that is mentally able to verify their identity. That wasn't the question though. There could be this verified identity, good paper trail, bank records for decades etc. And still exact date of birth can be unknown and unknowable. Data lost to the mists of time.
  - a0123 2y ago
    You do a lot of assuming for people who clearly have never dealt with that sort of things. Crazy how people will believe the weirdest customer service stories (and have no problem relating because we've all been in a kafkaesque situation) but the second they can bash "the administration and civil servants" or "random people who get a little bit of help and are NOT me", all of that goes out the window and things are supposed to be perfect and run smoothly.
- amiga386 2y ago
  Just to bring up a parallel, there was a influx of migration from the Caribbean to Britain between 1948 and 1970. These people were wanted and welcomed. A large proportion were children. The only records of their identity were held on paper by the UK government. They were called the Windrush generation, because the earliest of them crossed the ocean on HMT Empire Windrush. The UK government then LOST their paper records. In 2018, under the "hostile environment policy" set by Theresa May, the UK government started legally threatening these immigrants, and asked them to prove their settled status -- despite that same government having lost the only records that could prove that. The government then tried sending some "home" to countries they'd barely seen as a child and had zero family or friends in, and zero prospects. This was the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal > The March 2020 independent Windrush Lessons Learned Review, conducted by the inspector of constabulary Wendy Williams, concluded that the Home Office had shown "ignorance and thoughtlessness" and that what had happened had been "foreseeable and avoidable". Ignorance and thoughtlessness. Foreseeable and avoidable. Does that sound similar to what's happening today?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
thecopy 2y ago
Are we optimizing for nice and clean database table constraints over paying out welfare to people who need it?
- throwanem 2y ago
  Theirs is the "foolish consistency" whatsisname was on about, the hobgoblin one.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
I'm confident they don't just pay someone if their data is inconsistent; the database is not the only source of truth. The next question then becomes, how much does it cost to fix these inconsistencies? I'm also 99% confident that there's a small army of people that work to do so already, that is, fix and work with and around the inconsistencies.
yaur 2y ago
back in the 1920s and 30s it wasn't uncommon for people to be born at home and social security numbers wouldn't have been obtained at birth because there were no social security numbers yet. In some cases data of birth is uncertain e.g. summer of 1934 or 35. IN such cases any written record is likely to be at least unofficial and more than likely non-existent.

Muromec 2y ago

It's not the fault of the person, there is no legal basis to do so and it simply doesn't matter. Eventually everyobe just does anyway.

bawolff 2y ago

Until what? The person produces records that don't exist? Someone born in a cabin in the middle of the woods 90 years ago is not neccesarily going to have "info" to fix their birth records (especially if non religious, so there are no church records). They could give you a date, but they aren't going to be in a position to prove it.

londons_explore 2y ago
In which case you review the details they can provide, and if it looks likely legit you re-enable it. However if their name is "bobby tables" and their date of birth is 35th January 1806, and their only proof of that is a handwritten note with star signs, you disable it till either more proof is provided or a court makes a final decision.
- throwanem 2y ago
  Meanwhile here in the real world, when the US government arbitrarily refuses to honor its agreements - obligations it has in good faith entered into, and which no other party first violated - the dollar cracks. Only a very stupid American (or Englishman) wants that. I concede there are many very stupid Americans (and Englishmen) to the fore just now. They are sadly no less stupid for such prominence.
- a0123 2y ago
  "You just re-enable it". What world do you people live in? You do realise that the amount of "fraud" being discovered barely registers as a rounding error, right? That there is no significant amount being "wasted" here, right? And none of that is about government efficiency or "saving money". Right? Now that Elon has discovered all that fraud, how is the economy working out for you? How is the price of eggs doing? Have you finally become a millionaire now that all this red tape is gone? When is it supposed to happen? Why aren't you rich yet?
jandrese 2y ago
You are going to demand that these very old, often suffering from dementia, strokes, Alzheimer’s, etc… Americans go out to the state capital to defend their existence in front of a literal death panel? If they get their benefits cut off they die. Old people vote. There is no way Congress goes along with a scheme like this.
figassis 2y ago
I assume if social security is being paid and being spent, someone has the ability to manage a bank account, and that person then has a bank account, and the bank has collected enough kyc info to satisfy this correct? If not, at least there is a person on the other side that is mentally able to verify their identity.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  > not, at least there is a person on the other side that is mentally able to verify their identity. That wasn't the question though. There could be this verified identity, good paper trail, bank records for decades etc. And still exact date of birth can be unknown and unknowable. Data lost to the mists of time.
- a0123 2y ago
  You do a lot of assuming for people who clearly have never dealt with that sort of things. Crazy how people will believe the weirdest customer service stories (and have no problem relating because we've all been in a kafkaesque situation) but the second they can bash "the administration and civil servants" or "random people who get a little bit of help and are NOT me", all of that goes out the window and things are supposed to be perfect and run smoothly.
amiga386 2y ago
Just to bring up a parallel, there was a influx of migration from the Caribbean to Britain between 1948 and 1970. These people were wanted and welcomed. A large proportion were children. The only records of their identity were held on paper by the UK government. They were called the Windrush generation, because the earliest of them crossed the ocean on HMT Empire Windrush. The UK government then LOST their paper records. In 2018, under the "hostile environment policy" set by Theresa May, the UK government started legally threatening these immigrants, and asked them to prove their settled status -- despite that same government having lost the only records that could prove that. The government then tried sending some "home" to countries they'd barely seen as a child and had zero family or friends in, and zero prospects. This was the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal > The March 2020 independent Windrush Lessons Learned Review, conducted by the inspector of constabulary Wendy Williams, concluded that the Home Office had shown "ignorance and thoughtlessness" and that what had happened had been "foreseeable and avoidable". Ignorance and thoughtlessness. Foreseeable and avoidable. Does that sound similar to what's happening today?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

thecopy 2y ago

Are we optimizing for nice and clean database table constraints over paying out welfare to people who need it?

throwanem 2y ago
Theirs is the "foolish consistency" whatsisname was on about, the hobgoblin one.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

I'm confident they don't just pay someone if their data is inconsistent; the database is not the only source of truth. The next question then becomes, how much does it cost to fix these inconsistencies? I'm also 99% confident that there's a small army of people that work to do so already, that is, fix and work with and around the inconsistencies.

yaur 2y ago

back in the 1920s and 30s it wasn't uncommon for people to be born at home and social security numbers wouldn't have been obtained at birth because there were no social security numbers yet. In some cases data of birth is uncertain e.g. summer of 1934 or 35. IN such cases any written record is likely to be at least unofficial and more than likely non-existent.