4 ms·

> If the left wing are genuine in their meme that the right wing supports the 2nd coming of Hitler it is hard to see how the country will hold together. It's n

> If the left wing are genuine in their meme that the right wing supports the 2nd coming of Hitler it is hard to see how the country will hold together. It's not "the left wing" making that claim, but the whole world. You have the current Trump administration repeatedly threatening to invade and annex multiple neighboring countries. There is no way around it.

roenxi 2y ago
> You have the current Trump administration repeatedly threatening to invade and annex multiple neighboring countries What a shocking departure from the US's normal mode of operation. Are they finally going after Brazil? https://vividmaps.com/countries-attacked-by-the-us/ https://vividmaps.com/countries-attacked-by-the-us/
- motorest 2y ago
  > What a shocking departure from the US's normal mode of operation. Are they finally going after Brazil? They are going after multiple close allies. That's a clear departure from whatever pattern you think you have.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    If they are going after someone, tautologically, that someone is not an ally.
    - lallysingh 2y ago
      If that someone believed themselves an ally before, then the other countries thinking themselves allies now are doubting their positions.
    - motorest 2y ago
      > If they are going after someone, tautologically, that someone is not an ally. No one in their right mind would describe Canada or Denmark as anything other than staunch allies of the US. Trump's stunts forced the whole collective West to do a full 180 in their relations with the US.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        If US allies are doing a full 180 because a democratic country elected someone a bit different then their US relations were founded on delusion and it was never going to end well for anyone. It is easy to fall into the trap of negotiating with a faceless bureaucracy but that isn't how democracies actually work. They rethink the basics from time to time. Particularly when they're under stress and the status quo isn't working. We all know that, democracy has been a thing for more than 2,00 years. This isn't a new thing. I suppose ultimately it is a question for the US to debate internally how much to string people along; but my advice would be that it is better to root long term relations on a basis of common interests and basic power dynamics. Trump's approach looks pretty typical for someone with a lot of experience negotiating. You can hoodwink someone in good times or for tactical gain, but for a long term working relationship it in necessary to be straightforward about what the interests and goals are.
        motorest 2y ago
        > If US allies are doing a full 180 because a democratic country elected someone a bit different (...) The Trump administration is threatening countries with annexation and retaliation. Elections isn't a magic powder that you sprinkle onto anything to make it good. Even Hitler was elected. And so was Trump. If you elect a fascist dictator who threatens multiple neighbors with annexation and war, specially staunch allies, of course that the whole world automatically grows cold on you. You are a threat and you are threatening everyone.
        roenxi 2y ago
        You'll notice the election of Hitler didn't have much of an effect on German relations either; they re-fought the same war that they'd been fighting 20 years earlier. The big change was just that the Nazi edition German army was wildly effective compared to the version sent out in WWI. The US launching random and unprovoked invasion or destabilising their neighbours is normal behaviour. Look at the Afghanistan/Iraq wars for example; or their strategy of provocation leading to the ongoing eventual proxy war against Russia. If Canada or whoever think they're immune to that because ... who knows what reason makes sense to them then they are being aggressively stupid. They aren't magically immune to US military pressure. The way to achieve safety from the US is trying to convince their military to be less expeditionary, not to adopt appeasement strategies like the US's inner circle of allies tend to do. Although realistically I don't think the US is going to be invading anyone they are close to. The reason these countries are held closely is because when things get serious they tend to fold under US pressure without too much resistance.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> current Trump administration repeatedly threatening to invade and annex multiple neighboring countries This is America arriving late to a party that China rang in with Tibet and Taiwan and Russia with Ukraine.
- verzali 2y ago
  You should probably read up on the history of the United States' activities in the Americas. Here are a few pointers to get you started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Panama https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Pana... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Grenada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Gren... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_King... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Right, you’ve compiled a list of pre-WWI annexations and a random smattering of other military actions. In those cases, America was recapitulating European colonialism and great powers, in turn. If we broaden our scope to that list, we’re still left with lots of stuff that’s unpleasant but far from unprecedented. Fast forward to WWII, when the modern prohibitions on annexation emerged, and you find two countries doing most of the military annexing. (And America doing virtually none of it, the exceptions being around ISIS in the Middle East, where we de facto annexed strongholds as military outposts.)

roenxi 2y ago

> You have the current Trump administration repeatedly threatening to invade and annex multiple neighboring countries What a shocking departure from the US's normal mode of operation. Are they finally going after Brazil? https://vividmaps.com/countries-attacked-by-the-us/ https://vividmaps.com/countries-attacked-by-the-us/

motorest 2y ago
> What a shocking departure from the US's normal mode of operation. Are they finally going after Brazil? They are going after multiple close allies. That's a clear departure from whatever pattern you think you have.
- roenxi 2y ago
  If they are going after someone, tautologically, that someone is not an ally.
  - lallysingh 2y ago
    If that someone believed themselves an ally before, then the other countries thinking themselves allies now are doubting their positions.
  - motorest 2y ago
    > If they are going after someone, tautologically, that someone is not an ally. No one in their right mind would describe Canada or Denmark as anything other than staunch allies of the US. Trump's stunts forced the whole collective West to do a full 180 in their relations with the US.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      If US allies are doing a full 180 because a democratic country elected someone a bit different then their US relations were founded on delusion and it was never going to end well for anyone. It is easy to fall into the trap of negotiating with a faceless bureaucracy but that isn't how democracies actually work. They rethink the basics from time to time. Particularly when they're under stress and the status quo isn't working. We all know that, democracy has been a thing for more than 2,00 years. This isn't a new thing. I suppose ultimately it is a question for the US to debate internally how much to string people along; but my advice would be that it is better to root long term relations on a basis of common interests and basic power dynamics. Trump's approach looks pretty typical for someone with a lot of experience negotiating. You can hoodwink someone in good times or for tactical gain, but for a long term working relationship it in necessary to be straightforward about what the interests and goals are.
      - motorest 2y ago
        > If US allies are doing a full 180 because a democratic country elected someone a bit different (...) The Trump administration is threatening countries with annexation and retaliation. Elections isn't a magic powder that you sprinkle onto anything to make it good. Even Hitler was elected. And so was Trump. If you elect a fascist dictator who threatens multiple neighbors with annexation and war, specially staunch allies, of course that the whole world automatically grows cold on you. You are a threat and you are threatening everyone.
        roenxi 2y ago
        You'll notice the election of Hitler didn't have much of an effect on German relations either; they re-fought the same war that they'd been fighting 20 years earlier. The big change was just that the Nazi edition German army was wildly effective compared to the version sent out in WWI. The US launching random and unprovoked invasion or destabilising their neighbours is normal behaviour. Look at the Afghanistan/Iraq wars for example; or their strategy of provocation leading to the ongoing eventual proxy war against Russia. If Canada or whoever think they're immune to that because ... who knows what reason makes sense to them then they are being aggressively stupid. They aren't magically immune to US military pressure. The way to achieve safety from the US is trying to convince their military to be less expeditionary, not to adopt appeasement strategies like the US's inner circle of allies tend to do. Although realistically I don't think the US is going to be invading anyone they are close to. The reason these countries are held closely is because when things get serious they tend to fold under US pressure without too much resistance.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> current Trump administration repeatedly threatening to invade and annex multiple neighboring countries This is America arriving late to a party that China rang in with Tibet and Taiwan and Russia with Ukraine.

verzali 2y ago
You should probably read up on the history of the United States' activities in the Americas. Here are a few pointers to get you started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Panama https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Pana... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Grenada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Gren... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_King... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Right, you’ve compiled a list of pre-WWI annexations and a random smattering of other military actions. In those cases, America was recapitulating European colonialism and great powers, in turn. If we broaden our scope to that list, we’re still left with lots of stuff that’s unpleasant but far from unprecedented. Fast forward to WWII, when the modern prohibitions on annexation emerged, and you find two countries doing most of the military annexing. (And America doing virtually none of it, the exceptions being around ISIS in the Middle East, where we de facto annexed strongholds as military outposts.)