4 ms·

Programmers are some of the most in-demand workers in the world. You wield significant influence. And any even-slightly-functional workplace will at least try t

by ketzo 2y ago

Programmers are some of the most in-demand workers in the world. You wield significant influence. And any even-slightly-functional workplace will at least try to listen to the word of their experts. Perhaps it’s possible you didn’t do enough to explain why you didn’t believe it was the right work to do, or if you did, perhaps there were other factors in play than “user experience.” Also, uh, “I have to do what my boss says” doesn’t make you a blue collar worker.

ffsm8 2y ago
> doesn’t make you a blue collar worker. I know, I was exaggerating. I thought it was clear from my usage of the word "essentially". > perhaps there were other factors in play than “user experience.” Of course there were. There always are - chief among them the profitability, because selling the customer on stuff they didn't need is profitable. Especially if you frame it "right". But that example is completely unrelated to this case, to very little value in getting deeper into it.
Mountain_Skies 2y ago
If programmers are some of the most in-demand workers in the world, why do they have to send out over 1000 job applications and are still treated like trash by hiring processes? Hacker News is one of the few places on Earth where this belief that programmers are in control of everything still exists. Pretty much everywhere else has adapted to the reality where programmers are in great surplus, but the investor class won't be happy until it's a minimum wage job, or even better, an unpaid internship. No wonder HN has a reputation for being a bunch of out of touch Bay Area investors with little concept of the real world.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Do you think this accurately describes a Google engineer?
  - smallmancontrov 2y ago
    Yesterday? No. Today? Maybe. Tomorrow? Yes.
- ravenstine 2y ago
  Programmers have control over things product owners and management don't care about. Frankly, those are things nobody but programmers cares about. When it comes to meaningful decisions that would either improve or harm the user experience, I have only ever seen programmers treated as advisors at best and obedient little foot soldiers at worst. And why wouldn't they be treated this way by MBA types? Programmers are a necessary evil that management would rather not exist at all. Just because there are startups founded by programmers doesn't mean that's the reality of the vast majority of the software industry, or that said startups won't soon replace their leadership with MBA bozos whose only goal is making it to the next quarter.
ForHackernews 2y ago
> Also, uh, “I have to do what my boss says” doesn’t make you a blue collar worker. No, but it does make you a non-professional. The distinction between professionals and non-professionals is that members of professions have ethical obligations above and beyond their obligation to their employer. You will not find lawyers willing to perjure themselves, accountants to cook your books, or civil engineers happy to sign off on deadly designs. In contrast, software "engineers" are not professionals, we are hired goons and you can easily find a software monkey ready to build whatever atrocity you want for the right price.
- jodrellblank 2y ago
  > You will not find lawyers willing to perjure themselves, accountants to cook your books, or civil engineers happy to sign off on deadly designs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxe9g0el8epo https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxe9g0el8epo https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/practice/general-practice/accountant-jailed-after-defrauding-firm-and-clients-out-of-ps250000 https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/practice/general-practice/ac... https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3406928,00.html https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3406928,00.html
  - ForHackernews 2y ago
    These are noteworthy counterexamples, the exceptions that prove the rules. You will struggle to find any similar news stories for "software engineer jailed for implementing dark patterns"
    - jodrellblank 2y ago
      they prove your claim "you won't find this" is wrong. And probably because that's not illegal.
      - ForHackernews 2y ago
        >that's not illegal Unintentionally revealing comment here. Software goons have no concept of professional ethics and will do any terrible thing you pay them to do.
sdiupIGPWEfh 2y ago
Heard the of bimodal salary distribution? I'd bet it matches up quite well with a bimodal influence distribution.

by ketzo 2y ago

ffsm8 2y ago

> doesn’t make you a blue collar worker. I know, I was exaggerating. I thought it was clear from my usage of the word "essentially". > perhaps there were other factors in play than “user experience.” Of course there were. There always are - chief among them the profitability, because selling the customer on stuff they didn't need is profitable. Especially if you frame it "right". But that example is completely unrelated to this case, to very little value in getting deeper into it.

Mountain_Skies 2y ago

If programmers are some of the most in-demand workers in the world, why do they have to send out over 1000 job applications and are still treated like trash by hiring processes? Hacker News is one of the few places on Earth where this belief that programmers are in control of everything still exists. Pretty much everywhere else has adapted to the reality where programmers are in great surplus, but the investor class won't be happy until it's a minimum wage job, or even better, an unpaid internship. No wonder HN has a reputation for being a bunch of out of touch Bay Area investors with little concept of the real world.

saagarjha 2y ago
Do you think this accurately describes a Google engineer?
- smallmancontrov 2y ago
  Yesterday? No. Today? Maybe. Tomorrow? Yes.
ravenstine 2y ago
Programmers have control over things product owners and management don't care about. Frankly, those are things nobody but programmers cares about. When it comes to meaningful decisions that would either improve or harm the user experience, I have only ever seen programmers treated as advisors at best and obedient little foot soldiers at worst. And why wouldn't they be treated this way by MBA types? Programmers are a necessary evil that management would rather not exist at all. Just because there are startups founded by programmers doesn't mean that's the reality of the vast majority of the software industry, or that said startups won't soon replace their leadership with MBA bozos whose only goal is making it to the next quarter.

ForHackernews 2y ago

> Also, uh, “I have to do what my boss says” doesn’t make you a blue collar worker. No, but it does make you a non-professional. The distinction between professionals and non-professionals is that members of professions have ethical obligations above and beyond their obligation to their employer. You will not find lawyers willing to perjure themselves, accountants to cook your books, or civil engineers happy to sign off on deadly designs. In contrast, software "engineers" are not professionals, we are hired goons and you can easily find a software monkey ready to build whatever atrocity you want for the right price.

jodrellblank 2y ago
> You will not find lawyers willing to perjure themselves, accountants to cook your books, or civil engineers happy to sign off on deadly designs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxe9g0el8epo https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxe9g0el8epo https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/practice/general-practice/accountant-jailed-after-defrauding-firm-and-clients-out-of-ps250000 https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/practice/general-practice/ac... https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3406928,00.html https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3406928,00.html
- ForHackernews 2y ago
  These are noteworthy counterexamples, the exceptions that prove the rules. You will struggle to find any similar news stories for "software engineer jailed for implementing dark patterns"
  - jodrellblank 2y ago
    they prove your claim "you won't find this" is wrong. And probably because that's not illegal.
    - ForHackernews 2y ago
      >that's not illegal Unintentionally revealing comment here. Software goons have no concept of professional ethics and will do any terrible thing you pay them to do.

sdiupIGPWEfh 2y ago

Heard the of bimodal salary distribution? I'd bet it matches up quite well with a bimodal influence distribution.