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It's not the use of electric control that scares me, it's the inherently complicated control system. A primarminarily mechanical and hydraulic system just plai

It's not the use of electric control that scares me, it's the inherently complicated control system. A primarminarily mechanical and hydraulic system just plain has less things that can go wrong. Maybe I'm just biased, but I believe in using the simplest tech that will do the job. You don't need an Arduino to blink an LED.

daghamm 2y ago
No, but a self-sustained 8-bit or even 32-bit MCU may be cheaper than a 555.
gfkclzhzo 2y ago
A well designed embedded systems based on microcontrollers can be very reliable. Everything goes to hell if you need to connect to the internet or use high-level software.
- metaphor 2y ago
  > A well designed embedded systems based on microcontrollers can be very reliable. The objective measure of what qualifies as "well designed embedded systems" is inherently gray; and where industries have seen some semblance of consensus as a matter of unconditional need, it has always been accompanied with the tears of executives complaining of non-trivial expense.
  - gfkclzhzo 2y ago
    The same is true of purely mechanical designs. Isolated embedded systems can be like mechanical systems in that they're simple enough to be tractable and even deterministic. A system running Linux and calling AWS lamda functions through the cell network isn't tractable.
ryukoposting 2y ago
Electronics can certainly be made to have appliance-like reliability and consistency. I'm a firmware dev, I'd know. My design philosophy is this: if I'm doing my job right, the customer should never know I exist. That being said, there's a time and a place for software. Software is a solution to a problem, and I'm not clear on what problem this system is solving. Sure, Bosch's product makes the brake system smaller and lighter. Cool. To what extent does that make the car smaller and lighter? Amdahl's law applies to more than computers. Are we really optimizing the right thing here?
- metaphor 2y ago
  > Electronics can certainly be made to have appliance-like reliability and consistency. To be sure, when measured against prevailing market trends, this is objectively not a good thing. For safety-critical systems like a vehicle's brakes, I fully expect much more than the superficial considerations I would normally give to appliances.
  - ryukoposting 2y ago
    Your words hurt, but only because I know you're right.
- Brian_K_White 2y ago
  It doesn't matter how bulletproof the software is. It's already a huge downgrade that it must run on a chip. A mechanical linkage of cables or rods or a hydraulic system all have their failure points also, but the differences are the infrastructure required to manufacture a stick or a tube vs a chip and solenoids, motors, sensors, the fact that a cable or linkage or hydraulic piston usually fails gradually over a long time while still functioning, while a chip dies without warning and completely, and is not repairable in the field except by replacement, while you can repair a mechanical device essentially indefinitely with essentially any tools and materials that are available.
alkonaut 2y ago
Brake systems have already gone from mostly mechanical/hydraulic to more and more electronic with ABS, radar-autobraking, individual wheel braking with ESP and so on. The drivers brake pedal is just one of many inputs to the eventually hydraulic system, while the other inputs are already electronic. It seems to me you can simplify it but keeping all the brake inputs electronic and fusing them closer to the wheel, instead of having a mixed mechanical/electronic system? Same as a throttle. That used to be a wire (perhaps it commonly still is?) but the throttle input shifted from being solely the driver into being other systems like cruise control. As soon as you have an electromechanical system it does seem easiest to keep it electric->mechanical rather than mechanical<->electric. That simplification does ignore the driver feedback, however.
- richiebful1 2y ago
  To clear things up: the throttle used to be a physical cable, like on an affordable bicycle with rim brakes. It is still a cable on most motorcycles.
- maples37 2y ago
  The key difference here, though, is that all of those electronics are integrated into, and do not break the path of, the absolutely-must-work hydraulic path. Throttle-by-wire is a different beast entirely. If you step on the gas and don't go, that's usually very annoying, and depending on circumstances could be dangerous. But if you step on the brakes and don't stop, that's pretty much a guaranteed wreck right there.
  - yencabulator 2y ago
    ABS does break that path. And then because it's decreasing pressure it now has to have an electric pump to bring it back up.

daghamm 2y ago

No, but a self-sustained 8-bit or even 32-bit MCU may be cheaper than a 555.

gfkclzhzo 2y ago

A well designed embedded systems based on microcontrollers can be very reliable. Everything goes to hell if you need to connect to the internet or use high-level software.

metaphor 2y ago
> A well designed embedded systems based on microcontrollers can be very reliable. The objective measure of what qualifies as "well designed embedded systems" is inherently gray; and where industries have seen some semblance of consensus as a matter of unconditional need, it has always been accompanied with the tears of executives complaining of non-trivial expense.
- gfkclzhzo 2y ago
  The same is true of purely mechanical designs. Isolated embedded systems can be like mechanical systems in that they're simple enough to be tractable and even deterministic. A system running Linux and calling AWS lamda functions through the cell network isn't tractable.

ryukoposting 2y ago

Electronics can certainly be made to have appliance-like reliability and consistency. I'm a firmware dev, I'd know. My design philosophy is this: if I'm doing my job right, the customer should never know I exist. That being said, there's a time and a place for software. Software is a solution to a problem, and I'm not clear on what problem this system is solving. Sure, Bosch's product makes the brake system smaller and lighter. Cool. To what extent does that make the car smaller and lighter? Amdahl's law applies to more than computers. Are we really optimizing the right thing here?

metaphor 2y ago
> Electronics can certainly be made to have appliance-like reliability and consistency. To be sure, when measured against prevailing market trends, this is objectively not a good thing. For safety-critical systems like a vehicle's brakes, I fully expect much more than the superficial considerations I would normally give to appliances.
- ryukoposting 2y ago
  Your words hurt, but only because I know you're right.
Brian_K_White 2y ago
It doesn't matter how bulletproof the software is. It's already a huge downgrade that it must run on a chip. A mechanical linkage of cables or rods or a hydraulic system all have their failure points also, but the differences are the infrastructure required to manufacture a stick or a tube vs a chip and solenoids, motors, sensors, the fact that a cable or linkage or hydraulic piston usually fails gradually over a long time while still functioning, while a chip dies without warning and completely, and is not repairable in the field except by replacement, while you can repair a mechanical device essentially indefinitely with essentially any tools and materials that are available.

alkonaut 2y ago

Brake systems have already gone from mostly mechanical/hydraulic to more and more electronic with ABS, radar-autobraking, individual wheel braking with ESP and so on. The drivers brake pedal is just one of many inputs to the eventually hydraulic system, while the other inputs are already electronic. It seems to me you can simplify it but keeping all the brake inputs electronic and fusing them closer to the wheel, instead of having a mixed mechanical/electronic system? Same as a throttle. That used to be a wire (perhaps it commonly still is?) but the throttle input shifted from being solely the driver into being other systems like cruise control. As soon as you have an electromechanical system it does seem easiest to keep it electric->mechanical rather than mechanical<->electric. That simplification does ignore the driver feedback, however.

richiebful1 2y ago
To clear things up: the throttle used to be a physical cable, like on an affordable bicycle with rim brakes. It is still a cable on most motorcycles.
maples37 2y ago
The key difference here, though, is that all of those electronics are integrated into, and do not break the path of, the absolutely-must-work hydraulic path. Throttle-by-wire is a different beast entirely. If you step on the gas and don't go, that's usually very annoying, and depending on circumstances could be dangerous. But if you step on the brakes and don't stop, that's pretty much a guaranteed wreck right there.
- yencabulator 2y ago
  ABS does break that path. And then because it's decreasing pressure it now has to have an electric pump to bring it back up.