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We should stop normalizing giving phone numbers out to companies. If I don't want you to call me, why would I give you my phone number. And on the other side of

We should stop normalizing giving phone numbers out to companies. If I don't want you to call me, why would I give you my phone number. And on the other side of that coin, why do you want my phone number if you're not planning to call me? It's not an identifier. Just don't do it. Same with social security numbers. You don't get it unless I expect you to send me a tax-related form at tax time.

portaouflop 2y ago
Easy to say but some insist on identifying you via a phone number. In most other cases i just type some random numbers or use a number generator. SSN is a weird concept that thankfully doesn’t exist in my country. But yea unless this is a very important service you get 0 of my real data.
- hartator 2y ago
  > SSN is a weird concept that thankfully doesn’t exist in my country. I am pretty sure you have something similar in your country.
  - joseda-hg 2y ago
    Usually a bit less dangerous to give away though, most of my friends and coworkers have my personal id, because it also doubles as a bank account number Not that it matters on the context of giving away information
    - hartator 2y ago
      It’s not something you would want to post online, but it’s also not that big of deal if it got leaked. Most of them are. I would say a SSN getting leaked is as bad as a passport number getting leaked.
      - joseda-hg 2y ago
        Most people wouldn't but I do ocasionally see some posted online, it should never change, there's a second number that's usually used to validate further, and that one gets changed every time you renew you ID Document
  - portaouflop 2y ago
    There is some identification number sure - but I never needed to provide it for anything.
plagiarist 2y ago
Would be nice. If people collectively refused, the collecting of numbers would not happen. So nothing will change.
- Y_Y 2y ago
  It people acted collectively? As if through some sort of government?
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    Just like how strikes work.
what 2y ago
Every time I sign up for something that requires a phone number it says I already have an account because the previous user of the number signed up. I guess I should take over their Venmo/etc and hope a bank account is still linked.
belZaah 2y ago
That’s unfortunately the best you can get without a personal identification number. G is doing their best to establish your identity in the context, that actively tries to prevent them from doing so. Solving contradictory requirements will lead to nonsensical situations
- nialv7 2y ago
  Just the other day I was trying to create a new Google account, and was surprised by how much PII it was asking from me. I have a handful of Google accounts, the newest one created I think almost of a decade ago? I don't remember I needed any PII to create them, no phone number, no credit card, etc. What happened in these 10 years?
  - thrdbndndn 2y ago
    I by chance registered several new Google accounts lately. It was a few months ago so things might have changed. You don't need a credit card to register a Google account. As for the phone number, IIRC you do need to provide one during the registration but that number isn't automatically associated with your account, it's there more to prevent spamming I think. Also you can re-use the same number (to certain degree, at least; I have 4 accounts registered with the same number). Please note that I'm not saying this is ideal, but compared to some other "major" services, Google is actually on the easier side for registering an account.
  - martin-t 2y ago
    The terrorists kept winning and authoritarianism kept rising.
  - Y_Y 2y ago
    Google has been insisting for years that they need my date of birth "to comply with the law" (which law is not specified). Never mind that my account is more than twenty years old, and I've attached plenty of credit cards and devices and addresses to that account. I'm able to skip the nag screen, but I do worry that Google are going to get in big trouble one of these days and it'll be all my fault.
olalonde 2y ago
I think it's mostly a spam/bot mitigation technique. Getting a new phone number costs money and is often difficult to automate.
- inetknght 2y ago
  It's amazing how much waste our whole world economy incurs as a consequence of not enforcing anti-fraud laws against operators of compute devices.
  - master-lincoln 2y ago
    I think that is mostly because the perpetrators are often in a different country than victims. There is no global law or enforcement of rules, but the internet is global. That is a fundamental mismatch in my eyes.
    - dathinab 2y ago
      or ... because huge companies make a ton of money from it and pay lobbyist enough Like it really isn't that rare to have issues where people tell you "nothing can be done, it's from outside of our country" or similar. And then you travel and realize, it's a "your country" issue and many or even most other countries have fixed it or at least massively reduced it and the whole "criminals are in another country" thing didn't prevent them from fixing it... This e.g. is the case for US spam/scam/robo calls (which isn't "fully fixed" anywhere but starkly reduced by in many places including e.g. the EU).
      - gruez 2y ago
        >or ... because huge companies make a ton of money from it and pay lobbyist enough Which companies are making money off frauds like pig butchering scams? I think you're overestimating how competent the state is and underestimating how hard it is to solve problems like these. For instance, we can barely dissuade other countries from buying Iranian and Russian oil, and there's pretty much bipartisan consensus on that.
j16sdiz 2y ago
On the operation side of things, requiring phone number greatly reduce throwaway accounts and spam. You can't kill all spam, but it is down to a manageable level. Yes, some legitimate user can't sign up. Depends on what business you are in, and how much budget you put into spam/abuse prevention, this may or may not make sense.
pavon 2y ago
And physical addresses while we are at it. If you are shipping me something you need my address, but the fact that this became a mandatory part of authenticating credit card purchases is so invasive and provides practicaly no real security.
- Cu3PO42 2y ago
  Depending on jurisdictions, it may not be about security, but just a regulatory requirement. I need to confirm any transaction made in the bank's app on my phone, so I feel my card is sufficiently secure in that sense. However, businesses here are required to collect my billing information for transactions that do not happen in person and unfortunately address is defined to be a part of that. That said, I fully agree with you. I see little reason that buying, for example, a video game online needs my billing information more than walking into a store and buying it there, possibly with the same card. This just reminded me of a quote: "If cash were invented today, it would be illegal." I forget who (first) said it, but it rings true.
  - 35fbe7d3d5b9 2y ago
    > I see little reason that buying, for example, a video game online needs my billing information more than walking into a store and buying it there, possibly with the same card. In your latter example, a nexus clearly exists between the business selling you a video game and the state, so sales tax collection is patently obvious. When you buy online, they have to ask - it’s the only way to figure out the proper jurisdiction.
- GoblinSlayer 2y ago
  AFAIK, in USA they send some kind of invoice to your address. Not sure what it is or does though.
- pjc50 2y ago
  > but the fact that this became a mandatory part of authenticating credit card purchases is so invasive and provides practicaly no real security This is insurance against fraud where the card number is stolen and goods are ordered to a location other than the cardholder address. Which the merchant doesn't want to be liable for. So most places will only ship high value goods (sometimes any goods) to the cardholder address. The real security is now "enhanced verification", i.e. some sort of second factor and/or password in addition to the card. But this is much more annoying to use.
RataNova 2y ago
We need better alternatives, but right now, it feels like we’re stuck in a system
pjc50 2y ago
Sounds like you guys need some sort of general regulations for protecting people's data? Not like there's any chance of that happening in the DOGE era, of course.

portaouflop 2y ago

Easy to say but some insist on identifying you via a phone number. In most other cases i just type some random numbers or use a number generator. SSN is a weird concept that thankfully doesn’t exist in my country. But yea unless this is a very important service you get 0 of my real data.

hartator 2y ago
> SSN is a weird concept that thankfully doesn’t exist in my country. I am pretty sure you have something similar in your country.
- joseda-hg 2y ago
  Usually a bit less dangerous to give away though, most of my friends and coworkers have my personal id, because it also doubles as a bank account number Not that it matters on the context of giving away information
  - hartator 2y ago
    It’s not something you would want to post online, but it’s also not that big of deal if it got leaked. Most of them are. I would say a SSN getting leaked is as bad as a passport number getting leaked.
    - joseda-hg 2y ago
      Most people wouldn't but I do ocasionally see some posted online, it should never change, there's a second number that's usually used to validate further, and that one gets changed every time you renew you ID Document
- portaouflop 2y ago
  There is some identification number sure - but I never needed to provide it for anything.

plagiarist 2y ago

Would be nice. If people collectively refused, the collecting of numbers would not happen. So nothing will change.

Y_Y 2y ago
It people acted collectively? As if through some sort of government?
- johnisgood 2y ago
  Just like how strikes work.

what 2y ago

Every time I sign up for something that requires a phone number it says I already have an account because the previous user of the number signed up. I guess I should take over their Venmo/etc and hope a bank account is still linked.

belZaah 2y ago

That’s unfortunately the best you can get without a personal identification number. G is doing their best to establish your identity in the context, that actively tries to prevent them from doing so. Solving contradictory requirements will lead to nonsensical situations

nialv7 2y ago
Just the other day I was trying to create a new Google account, and was surprised by how much PII it was asking from me. I have a handful of Google accounts, the newest one created I think almost of a decade ago? I don't remember I needed any PII to create them, no phone number, no credit card, etc. What happened in these 10 years?
- thrdbndndn 2y ago
  I by chance registered several new Google accounts lately. It was a few months ago so things might have changed. You don't need a credit card to register a Google account. As for the phone number, IIRC you do need to provide one during the registration but that number isn't automatically associated with your account, it's there more to prevent spamming I think. Also you can re-use the same number (to certain degree, at least; I have 4 accounts registered with the same number). Please note that I'm not saying this is ideal, but compared to some other "major" services, Google is actually on the easier side for registering an account.
- martin-t 2y ago
  The terrorists kept winning and authoritarianism kept rising.
- Y_Y 2y ago
  Google has been insisting for years that they need my date of birth "to comply with the law" (which law is not specified). Never mind that my account is more than twenty years old, and I've attached plenty of credit cards and devices and addresses to that account. I'm able to skip the nag screen, but I do worry that Google are going to get in big trouble one of these days and it'll be all my fault.

olalonde 2y ago

I think it's mostly a spam/bot mitigation technique. Getting a new phone number costs money and is often difficult to automate.

inetknght 2y ago
It's amazing how much waste our whole world economy incurs as a consequence of not enforcing anti-fraud laws against operators of compute devices.
- master-lincoln 2y ago
  I think that is mostly because the perpetrators are often in a different country than victims. There is no global law or enforcement of rules, but the internet is global. That is a fundamental mismatch in my eyes.
  - dathinab 2y ago
    or ... because huge companies make a ton of money from it and pay lobbyist enough Like it really isn't that rare to have issues where people tell you "nothing can be done, it's from outside of our country" or similar. And then you travel and realize, it's a "your country" issue and many or even most other countries have fixed it or at least massively reduced it and the whole "criminals are in another country" thing didn't prevent them from fixing it... This e.g. is the case for US spam/scam/robo calls (which isn't "fully fixed" anywhere but starkly reduced by in many places including e.g. the EU).
    - gruez 2y ago
      >or ... because huge companies make a ton of money from it and pay lobbyist enough Which companies are making money off frauds like pig butchering scams? I think you're overestimating how competent the state is and underestimating how hard it is to solve problems like these. For instance, we can barely dissuade other countries from buying Iranian and Russian oil, and there's pretty much bipartisan consensus on that.

j16sdiz 2y ago

On the operation side of things, requiring phone number greatly reduce throwaway accounts and spam. You can't kill all spam, but it is down to a manageable level. Yes, some legitimate user can't sign up. Depends on what business you are in, and how much budget you put into spam/abuse prevention, this may or may not make sense.

pavon 2y ago

And physical addresses while we are at it. If you are shipping me something you need my address, but the fact that this became a mandatory part of authenticating credit card purchases is so invasive and provides practicaly no real security.

Cu3PO42 2y ago
Depending on jurisdictions, it may not be about security, but just a regulatory requirement. I need to confirm any transaction made in the bank's app on my phone, so I feel my card is sufficiently secure in that sense. However, businesses here are required to collect my billing information for transactions that do not happen in person and unfortunately address is defined to be a part of that. That said, I fully agree with you. I see little reason that buying, for example, a video game online needs my billing information more than walking into a store and buying it there, possibly with the same card. This just reminded me of a quote: "If cash were invented today, it would be illegal." I forget who (first) said it, but it rings true.
- 35fbe7d3d5b9 2y ago
  > I see little reason that buying, for example, a video game online needs my billing information more than walking into a store and buying it there, possibly with the same card. In your latter example, a nexus clearly exists between the business selling you a video game and the state, so sales tax collection is patently obvious. When you buy online, they have to ask - it’s the only way to figure out the proper jurisdiction.
GoblinSlayer 2y ago
AFAIK, in USA they send some kind of invoice to your address. Not sure what it is or does though.
pjc50 2y ago
> but the fact that this became a mandatory part of authenticating credit card purchases is so invasive and provides practicaly no real security This is insurance against fraud where the card number is stolen and goods are ordered to a location other than the cardholder address. Which the merchant doesn't want to be liable for. So most places will only ship high value goods (sometimes any goods) to the cardholder address. The real security is now "enhanced verification", i.e. some sort of second factor and/or password in addition to the card. But this is much more annoying to use.

RataNova 2y ago

We need better alternatives, but right now, it feels like we’re stuck in a system

pjc50 2y ago

Sounds like you guys need some sort of general regulations for protecting people's data? Not like there's any chance of that happening in the DOGE era, of course.