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> Does being publicly traded imply a company shouldn't have a moral code to stand by? Yes. The appearance of a moral code is all that is necessary. And btw,

> Does being publicly traded imply a company shouldn't have a moral code to stand by? Yes. The appearance of a moral code is all that is necessary. And btw, companies cannot be moral, any more than any other object (chair, house) can be. People however, can be moral. Also, people at Google decided to drop their previous "don't be evil" motto, so perhaps that tells you something.

darkwater 2y ago
> companies cannot be moral I don't buy this. Companies _are made_ of people. The ones that set the direction can be more or less detached from the outcomes of those decisions, but are people nonetheless. Shareholders? People as well.
- verisimi 2y ago
  I assure you, that a company cannot have a morality. It also cannot have a preference for chocolate ice cream, basketball or have children. Companies are not made of people either. Similarly, if you want to speak to a company, you will speak to someone whose job it is to represent the company - you will not speak to the company itself - its a legal fiction. Companies are legal paperwork that real people engage with to get money - such is the way our society is organised. If you were to argue that some animals exhibit morality - I would see what you mean.
  - darkwater 2y ago
    Yes but who/what dictates the tone the company will use to answer you? Ultimately, a person. Even if they are just following a style manual, that was written by a group of people as well. And reviewed by some C-level, probably.
    - verisimi 2y ago
      Individuals can take on groupthink idea (ie a company) - they can re-interpret the information in a relatively coherent way. Think of the idea of say 'Christians' - there is a relatively coherent idea there being animated in all those minds. But then, at an individual level, there is difference in what is believed (eg 'the Father' idea will be be different in each). Its just assumed that the groupthink idea is the same in all. Its a pleasing illusion for an individual to believe. There is no company morality - as companies and groups cannot feel or register value. The value is entirely in the individual. Yes, one individual can affected and be affected by another. Yes, an individual can say 'We at Google blah blah' and mean what they are saying, and still be wrong. The idea of a 'group' with feelings, morality etc is just an illusory projection.
- dietr1ch 2y ago
  I agree, companies nor computers for themselves can't be moral, and instead need to rely on rules that model morals, but in order for them to interact with the world they need humans that allow them to interact with the world, and that must be held accountable for the morality of their systems. This is why the AI world were, "sorry, computers says no" pretending to cut people off the loop is kind of scary, as people want to pretend this indirection frees them from accountability. It'll be important for the law to reflect this, but ultimately just being lawfully right, but morally wrong can get you shot in the back anyways.

darkwater 2y ago

> companies cannot be moral I don't buy this. Companies _are made_ of people. The ones that set the direction can be more or less detached from the outcomes of those decisions, but are people nonetheless. Shareholders? People as well.

verisimi 2y ago
I assure you, that a company cannot have a morality. It also cannot have a preference for chocolate ice cream, basketball or have children. Companies are not made of people either. Similarly, if you want to speak to a company, you will speak to someone whose job it is to represent the company - you will not speak to the company itself - its a legal fiction. Companies are legal paperwork that real people engage with to get money - such is the way our society is organised. If you were to argue that some animals exhibit morality - I would see what you mean.
- darkwater 2y ago
  Yes but who/what dictates the tone the company will use to answer you? Ultimately, a person. Even if they are just following a style manual, that was written by a group of people as well. And reviewed by some C-level, probably.
  - verisimi 2y ago
    Individuals can take on groupthink idea (ie a company) - they can re-interpret the information in a relatively coherent way. Think of the idea of say 'Christians' - there is a relatively coherent idea there being animated in all those minds. But then, at an individual level, there is difference in what is believed (eg 'the Father' idea will be be different in each). Its just assumed that the groupthink idea is the same in all. Its a pleasing illusion for an individual to believe. There is no company morality - as companies and groups cannot feel or register value. The value is entirely in the individual. Yes, one individual can affected and be affected by another. Yes, an individual can say 'We at Google blah blah' and mean what they are saying, and still be wrong. The idea of a 'group' with feelings, morality etc is just an illusory projection.
dietr1ch 2y ago
I agree, companies nor computers for themselves can't be moral, and instead need to rely on rules that model morals, but in order for them to interact with the world they need humans that allow them to interact with the world, and that must be held accountable for the morality of their systems. This is why the AI world were, "sorry, computers says no" pretending to cut people off the loop is kind of scary, as people want to pretend this indirection frees them from accountability. It'll be important for the law to reflect this, but ultimately just being lawfully right, but morally wrong can get you shot in the back anyways.