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Java is verbose, is a resource hog, requires runtime management for basic app performance, the major frameworks (used to) require an awful lot of boiler plate,

Java is verbose, is a resource hog, requires runtime management for basic app performance, the major frameworks (used to) require an awful lot of boiler plate, the developer tooling almost necessitates an IDE which 10-15 years ago meant eclipse which was slow, bloated, and unstable. There’s also always been licensing “fun” with oracle, sun, and the jdk.

watwut 2y ago
What are you talking about, seriously. 10-15 years ago, eclipse was neither slow nor unstable. It worked perfectly well. IntelliJ was not slow or unstable. There were not real major licensing issues. As a newcommer to javascript, I was able to learn faster and produce same quality faster then non-IDE developers. Not because I would be smarter or more talented, but because I had no emotional need to prove myself by not using ide.
- ludwik 2y ago
  > What are you talking about, seriously It's probably unavoidable that people's memories will differ, but personally, as someone who worked with Java 10–15 years ago and then ran away as fast as he could, these are the things I remember most: the IDEs being awfully slow and unstable (though quite powerful for their time) and the language/ecosystem being painfully verbose and full of boilerplate and layers of indirection. I remember how, after switching away from Java, I felt elated by how easy and maintainable things could be when I was allowed to use simple, fast tools and write straightforward code that just did what it was supposed to do.
- maccard 2y ago
  Eclipse was _the_ tool when I was working with Java at the time. Slow and unstable is definitely my lasting memory, compared to virtual studio 2008/2010 which was fast and powerful. > there were not real licensing issues Oh yes there were. Even in 2024 the “which JDK are you running on” debate still goes on. There are notable differences between corretto and openjdk, and openjdk and Oracle JDK. Here [0] is a stack overflow question that notes it was asked 10 years ago that talks about the various JDKs and the license change where oracle started charging for JDK access. As for your point about IDE’s vs non-IDE’s that’s a straw man. I said that you were forced to used an IDE for Java (which is of course not technically true but compared to rails which took of at that time it is), but also that the IDE du jour (eclipse) was pretty monstrous. I’ve said this on here before but the minute maven gets introduced into a project build times are measured in minutes. My current work project is c# and I can run my entire test suite faster than the jvm got itself up and running on my last kotlin project. Even IntelliJ and co suffer from these limitations - manually bumping the memory limits for IntelliJ and friends in 2024 is practically a requirement, and the startup times are very Java inspired. [0] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22358071/differences-between-oracle-jdk-and-openjdk https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22358071/differences-bet...
  - watwut 2y ago
    If you mean visual studio for dotnet and it is comparably piece of crap. A lot of unexplained behavior and it generally feels like someone just wanted to check boxes. Dotnet and visual studio actually made me love love a lot more after I worked with them. Java and Eclipse are waaay better then C# and visual studio. Kotlin is a pure pleasure against C#. Also, I see people using different JDKa on the same project. That there is competition is a good thing, it is not like you was locked in one.
    - neonsunset 2y ago
      > Java and Eclipse are waaay better then C# and visual studio. Kotlin is a pure pleasure against C#. Except, unlike Kotlin, C# has a rich selection of what to use for development across a variety of platforms and is not constrained to JVM's type system limitations, allowing the syntax differences to have meaningful impact on the code execution. It also has excellent, comparable to Go and Rust, CLI tooling to further streamline the process of quickly managing, building, testing, running and deploying projects, something JVM ecosystem is yet to provide an alternative for.
    - maccard 2y ago
      > If you mean visual studio for dotnet and it is comparably piece of crap. A lot of unexplained behavior and it generally feels like someone just wanted to check boxes. I disagree. dotnet has it's quirks, but so does every mature ecosystem. I wouldn't use "piece of crap" to describe it (or java) and I get that it's an opinion, but I think your opinion is more misguided than what yo're accusing other people of believing. > Kotlin is a pure pleasure against C#. My last project was a kotlin backend powering a C+ desktop app. The kotlin backend took longer to compile than the C++ did. Kotlin is the kitchen sink bolted onto Java. It's definitely a nice environment to work in, but it's certainly not a more streamlined java. > That there is competition is a good thing, it is not like you was locked in one. If by competition you mean OpenJDK forks with minor differences then yes there's competition. To me that's not competition, that's fragmentation.
- leptons 2y ago
  Yes, 10-15 years ago, Eclipse and IntelliJ were unbearably slow, overly complex, and made developers very frustrated.
  - abraxas 2y ago
    Yeah but that was when product managers broke it. The early days eclipse circa 2002 was amazing
- mceachen 2y ago
  15 years ago, it took a full 10 minutes to launch IDEA or Eclipse and have it finish opening a large (100kloc+) java project on a brand-new high-end MacBook Pro. 3-10 crashes per day were common. Lots or coffee breaks, or at least switching back to emacs to just finish editing whatever classes you were touching.

watwut 2y ago

What are you talking about, seriously. 10-15 years ago, eclipse was neither slow nor unstable. It worked perfectly well. IntelliJ was not slow or unstable. There were not real major licensing issues. As a newcommer to javascript, I was able to learn faster and produce same quality faster then non-IDE developers. Not because I would be smarter or more talented, but because I had no emotional need to prove myself by not using ide.

ludwik 2y ago
> What are you talking about, seriously It's probably unavoidable that people's memories will differ, but personally, as someone who worked with Java 10–15 years ago and then ran away as fast as he could, these are the things I remember most: the IDEs being awfully slow and unstable (though quite powerful for their time) and the language/ecosystem being painfully verbose and full of boilerplate and layers of indirection. I remember how, after switching away from Java, I felt elated by how easy and maintainable things could be when I was allowed to use simple, fast tools and write straightforward code that just did what it was supposed to do.
maccard 2y ago
Eclipse was _the_ tool when I was working with Java at the time. Slow and unstable is definitely my lasting memory, compared to virtual studio 2008/2010 which was fast and powerful. > there were not real licensing issues Oh yes there were. Even in 2024 the “which JDK are you running on” debate still goes on. There are notable differences between corretto and openjdk, and openjdk and Oracle JDK. Here [0] is a stack overflow question that notes it was asked 10 years ago that talks about the various JDKs and the license change where oracle started charging for JDK access. As for your point about IDE’s vs non-IDE’s that’s a straw man. I said that you were forced to used an IDE for Java (which is of course not technically true but compared to rails which took of at that time it is), but also that the IDE du jour (eclipse) was pretty monstrous. I’ve said this on here before but the minute maven gets introduced into a project build times are measured in minutes. My current work project is c# and I can run my entire test suite faster than the jvm got itself up and running on my last kotlin project. Even IntelliJ and co suffer from these limitations - manually bumping the memory limits for IntelliJ and friends in 2024 is practically a requirement, and the startup times are very Java inspired. [0] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22358071/differences-between-oracle-jdk-and-openjdk https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22358071/differences-bet...
- watwut 2y ago
  If you mean visual studio for dotnet and it is comparably piece of crap. A lot of unexplained behavior and it generally feels like someone just wanted to check boxes. Dotnet and visual studio actually made me love love a lot more after I worked with them. Java and Eclipse are waaay better then C# and visual studio. Kotlin is a pure pleasure against C#. Also, I see people using different JDKa on the same project. That there is competition is a good thing, it is not like you was locked in one.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    > Java and Eclipse are waaay better then C# and visual studio. Kotlin is a pure pleasure against C#. Except, unlike Kotlin, C# has a rich selection of what to use for development across a variety of platforms and is not constrained to JVM's type system limitations, allowing the syntax differences to have meaningful impact on the code execution. It also has excellent, comparable to Go and Rust, CLI tooling to further streamline the process of quickly managing, building, testing, running and deploying projects, something JVM ecosystem is yet to provide an alternative for.
  - maccard 2y ago
    > If you mean visual studio for dotnet and it is comparably piece of crap. A lot of unexplained behavior and it generally feels like someone just wanted to check boxes. I disagree. dotnet has it's quirks, but so does every mature ecosystem. I wouldn't use "piece of crap" to describe it (or java) and I get that it's an opinion, but I think your opinion is more misguided than what yo're accusing other people of believing. > Kotlin is a pure pleasure against C#. My last project was a kotlin backend powering a C+ desktop app. The kotlin backend took longer to compile than the C++ did. Kotlin is the kitchen sink bolted onto Java. It's definitely a nice environment to work in, but it's certainly not a more streamlined java. > That there is competition is a good thing, it is not like you was locked in one. If by competition you mean OpenJDK forks with minor differences then yes there's competition. To me that's not competition, that's fragmentation.
leptons 2y ago
Yes, 10-15 years ago, Eclipse and IntelliJ were unbearably slow, overly complex, and made developers very frustrated.
- abraxas 2y ago
  Yeah but that was when product managers broke it. The early days eclipse circa 2002 was amazing
mceachen 2y ago
15 years ago, it took a full 10 minutes to launch IDEA or Eclipse and have it finish opening a large (100kloc+) java project on a brand-new high-end MacBook Pro. 3-10 crashes per day were common. Lots or coffee breaks, or at least switching back to emacs to just finish editing whatever classes you were touching.