3 ms·

Americans should care because America isn't the world. So much wealth and power derives from people seeing you as the good guy. Blowing that up will make Americ

Americans should care because America isn't the world. So much wealth and power derives from people seeing you as the good guy. Blowing that up will make America poorer.

rayiner 2y ago
The US is far less dependent on trade than the average country. We could close our borders to the world entirely and be fine after an initial discomfort. And nobody has has seen America as the “good guy” in my lifetime. We’re the country that destabilizes Latin American and Asian countries, bombs the Middle East, etc. I used to think there was at least a logic to all that, but it turns out our elites were just ideologues and morons.
- MVissers 2y ago
  I can tell you that the non-US west has lost a lot of goodwill in the last few weeks. There are boycott’s afoot and I wouldn’t be surprised if canada and Europe will choose more Chinese and domestic in the future. Basically, the US closing its borders will lead to a Chinese world leadership which is not good for the US either.
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  > We could close our borders to the world entirely and be fine after an initial discomfort. I'm no economist but a trade deficit in the hundreds of billions[0] suggests otherwise. [0] Wikipedia says 773B for 2023.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Which is just 3.3% of GDP.
    - zimpenfish 2y ago
      > Which is just 3.3% of GDP. Again, I'm not an economist, bear with me and explain what that's got to do with the trade deficit being a deficit? You could have a GDP of a quintillion dollars a year but if you're consistently running a trade deficit (which the US has for decades), that strongly implies you cannot close your borders with impunity. If you could supply the goods cheaper than importing them, people would, no? Simple capitalism!
    - philipwhiuk 2y ago
      More than enough to push you into a recession even ignoring the reality that your current growth rate is propelled by a very frothy tech sector.
    - totallynothoney 2y ago
      Much like a 3.3% BAC is just mild buzz.
    - brimwats 2y ago
      Canada is the source of more than 80% of the US's potash, the source of fertilizer. Without that, the entire farming industry and its crops withers and dies. It is not something easily sourced and not something easily replaced, and the crops all die long before it can be sourced or replaced. Your suggestion to close the border is absurd, jingoistic, empty, and meaningless.
  - throaway89 2y ago
    There'a a whole generation of Canadians who won't send a single dollar anywhere near the US thanks to Trump. I don't think we'll ever forget this.
- yndoendo 2y ago
  USA exports are idling around 1/4 to near 1/3 of the GDP. Our economy is heavily tied to imports from other counties. When it comes to isolation I think of this: The word invasion itself is a good example of this. A French ironmaster says: "We must protect ourselves from the invasion of English iron!" An English landlord cries: "We must repel the invasion of French wheat!" And they urge the erection of barriers between the two nations. Barriers result in isolation; isolation gives rise to hatred; hatred, to war; war, to invasion. "What difference does it make?" say the two sophists. "Is it not better to risk the possibility of invasion than to accept the certainty of invasion?" And the people believe them, and the barriers remain standing. And yet, what analogy is there between an exchange and an invasion? What possible similarity can there be between a warship that comes to vomit missiles, fire, and devastation on our cities, and a merchant vessel that comes to offer us a voluntary exchange of goods for goods?
- lossolo 2y ago
  Who do you think buys U.S. debt (2 trillion this year) and props up the U.S. stock exchange and assets when recycling USD?
- sudosysgen 2y ago
  The US is extremely dependent on trade because the US needs the USD to be the currency of trade and reserve to sustain its debt and deficits, without which GDP would drop precipitously. The US isn't far less dependent, China is at 37% GDP from trade to the US's 27% but doesn't have the structural dependency on trade from having the reserve currency.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  While American, I've lived most of my life abroad, and share with your world view of the US. But after having spent years living in China, and being very familiar with the political situation there and their global ambitions, I'm afraid that the alternative to the US is even worse. Have a democratic system has somewhat of a moderating effect on the worst impulses of the US elite. China has no such guardrails.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    What “democratic system?” American are checked by anti-democratic forces at every turn, from a judiciary that overturns duly enacted laws based on “emanations from penumbras” to an executive branch that is run by the same people regardless of who wins the election to institutions that are captured by people that abuse their positions to peddle their fringe ideologies. At least China’s unelected bureaucrats are competent and actually focused on what’s good for the public: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur...
    - insane_dreamer 2y ago
      To paraphrase Churchill, "democracy is the worst system, except for all the others". There's a lot you don't know about how things actually work in China. The levels of autocracy, corruption and lack of true legal framework, make the US look like a democratic haven.
    - throaway89 2y ago
      The US is a paragon of (domestic) democracy and (domestic) human rights next to China, and I say that as a HARSH critic of the West.
    - emchammer 2y ago
      Would this be the same China where jaywalkers' portaits are automatically shamed on electronic billboards and fined social credits? Is that a worthwhile trade for universal single-payer healthcare?

Americans should care because America isn't the world. So much wealth and power derives from people seeing you as the good guy. Blowing that up will make America poorer.

rayiner 2y ago

The US is far less dependent on trade than the average country. We could close our borders to the world entirely and be fine after an initial discomfort. And nobody has has seen America as the “good guy” in my lifetime. We’re the country that destabilizes Latin American and Asian countries, bombs the Middle East, etc. I used to think there was at least a logic to all that, but it turns out our elites were just ideologues and morons.

MVissers 2y ago
I can tell you that the non-US west has lost a lot of goodwill in the last few weeks. There are boycott’s afoot and I wouldn’t be surprised if canada and Europe will choose more Chinese and domestic in the future. Basically, the US closing its borders will lead to a Chinese world leadership which is not good for the US either.
zimpenfish 2y ago
> We could close our borders to the world entirely and be fine after an initial discomfort. I'm no economist but a trade deficit in the hundreds of billions[0] suggests otherwise. [0] Wikipedia says 773B for 2023.
- rayiner 2y ago
  Which is just 3.3% of GDP.
  - zimpenfish 2y ago
    > Which is just 3.3% of GDP. Again, I'm not an economist, bear with me and explain what that's got to do with the trade deficit being a deficit? You could have a GDP of a quintillion dollars a year but if you're consistently running a trade deficit (which the US has for decades), that strongly implies you cannot close your borders with impunity. If you could supply the goods cheaper than importing them, people would, no? Simple capitalism!
  - philipwhiuk 2y ago
    More than enough to push you into a recession even ignoring the reality that your current growth rate is propelled by a very frothy tech sector.
  - totallynothoney 2y ago
    Much like a 3.3% BAC is just mild buzz.
  - brimwats 2y ago
    Canada is the source of more than 80% of the US's potash, the source of fertilizer. Without that, the entire farming industry and its crops withers and dies. It is not something easily sourced and not something easily replaced, and the crops all die long before it can be sourced or replaced. Your suggestion to close the border is absurd, jingoistic, empty, and meaningless.
- throaway89 2y ago
  There'a a whole generation of Canadians who won't send a single dollar anywhere near the US thanks to Trump. I don't think we'll ever forget this.
yndoendo 2y ago
USA exports are idling around 1/4 to near 1/3 of the GDP. Our economy is heavily tied to imports from other counties. When it comes to isolation I think of this: The word invasion itself is a good example of this. A French ironmaster says: "We must protect ourselves from the invasion of English iron!" An English landlord cries: "We must repel the invasion of French wheat!" And they urge the erection of barriers between the two nations. Barriers result in isolation; isolation gives rise to hatred; hatred, to war; war, to invasion. "What difference does it make?" say the two sophists. "Is it not better to risk the possibility of invasion than to accept the certainty of invasion?" And the people believe them, and the barriers remain standing. And yet, what analogy is there between an exchange and an invasion? What possible similarity can there be between a warship that comes to vomit missiles, fire, and devastation on our cities, and a merchant vessel that comes to offer us a voluntary exchange of goods for goods?
lossolo 2y ago
Who do you think buys U.S. debt (2 trillion this year) and props up the U.S. stock exchange and assets when recycling USD?
sudosysgen 2y ago
The US is extremely dependent on trade because the US needs the USD to be the currency of trade and reserve to sustain its debt and deficits, without which GDP would drop precipitously. The US isn't far less dependent, China is at 37% GDP from trade to the US's 27% but doesn't have the structural dependency on trade from having the reserve currency.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
While American, I've lived most of my life abroad, and share with your world view of the US. But after having spent years living in China, and being very familiar with the political situation there and their global ambitions, I'm afraid that the alternative to the US is even worse. Have a democratic system has somewhat of a moderating effect on the worst impulses of the US elite. China has no such guardrails.
- rayiner 2y ago
  What “democratic system?” American are checked by anti-democratic forces at every turn, from a judiciary that overturns duly enacted laws based on “emanations from penumbras” to an executive branch that is run by the same people regardless of who wins the election to institutions that are captured by people that abuse their positions to peddle their fringe ideologies. At least China’s unelected bureaucrats are competent and actually focused on what’s good for the public: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur...
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    To paraphrase Churchill, "democracy is the worst system, except for all the others". There's a lot you don't know about how things actually work in China. The levels of autocracy, corruption and lack of true legal framework, make the US look like a democratic haven.
  - throaway89 2y ago
    The US is a paragon of (domestic) democracy and (domestic) human rights next to China, and I say that as a HARSH critic of the West.
  - emchammer 2y ago
    Would this be the same China where jaywalkers' portaits are automatically shamed on electronic billboards and fined social credits? Is that a worthwhile trade for universal single-payer healthcare?