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> Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Agreed, Bs

> Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Agreed, Bs are the key here, and it connects neatly to another concept that I believe is misunderstood: the fight, flight, freeze and fawn response (from psychology) While lions sure are dangerous that problem was solved by evolution by becoming social group creatures so the big danger is being left out of the group. That's where the imminent/perceived danger is: being alone puts us at risk.

vacuity 2y ago
I think both of you are building up the notion that we are built for bullying, which I say is true. We are social and emotional creatures first and rational creatures second. The solution requires people standing up and being firm but respectful and self-critical. If that use of power is considered bullying, so be it, but I'm not sure that terminology is useful. We need to appeal to rational use of force, which is more of an ideal than anything else. It is in our failings to acknowledge or commit to that ideal that we continue to allow bullying.
- navane 2y ago
  I'm with you on the first half, but I don't understand the language you use from "We need to..." onwards, which gets to the practical application of what we should do.
  - vacuity 2y ago
    We should be rational creatures first. That isn't really achievable, and I resent that, but I think it's still a goal worth having. And of course one needs power in some form or another, whether that's the capacity for physical violence, social persuasion, funding, etc.. For someone to both be powerful and rational, they would be a force for good. Encourage cultivating both qualities in balance, particularly with "the masses" leveraging social forces instead of being bystanders or accomplices. We shouldn't tolerate, let alone celebrate, anti-intellectualism and force used for self-interest, which is to say, bullying. We need to formulate a different culture that encourages critical thinking, honesty, benevolence, and power.

vacuity 2y ago

I think both of you are building up the notion that we are built for bullying, which I say is true. We are social and emotional creatures first and rational creatures second. The solution requires people standing up and being firm but respectful and self-critical. If that use of power is considered bullying, so be it, but I'm not sure that terminology is useful. We need to appeal to rational use of force, which is more of an ideal than anything else. It is in our failings to acknowledge or commit to that ideal that we continue to allow bullying.

navane 2y ago
I'm with you on the first half, but I don't understand the language you use from "We need to..." onwards, which gets to the practical application of what we should do.
- vacuity 2y ago
  We should be rational creatures first. That isn't really achievable, and I resent that, but I think it's still a goal worth having. And of course one needs power in some form or another, whether that's the capacity for physical violence, social persuasion, funding, etc.. For someone to both be powerful and rational, they would be a force for good. Encourage cultivating both qualities in balance, particularly with "the masses" leveraging social forces instead of being bystanders or accomplices. We shouldn't tolerate, let alone celebrate, anti-intellectualism and force used for self-interest, which is to say, bullying. We need to formulate a different culture that encourages critical thinking, honesty, benevolence, and power.