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> Don't get me wrong we can make tools and we can experiment and be able to suppress all other animals. But a solo, "naked" human is like an office worker in wo

> Don't get me wrong we can make tools and we can experiment and be able to suppress all other animals. But a solo, "naked" human is like an office worker in world of manual labor. Nah most of it is nurture. Raise a human in the wild and he'll be more in tune with nature. We have become alienated from the environment we evolved in and that's why you feel like a "naked office worker" on your own planet despite being the result of billions of years of adaptation. Most humans simply ignore animals when they communicate. Both because they're ignorant and because they won't bother to listen. You can't expect an animal to talk with human words, but they talk all the time. Pets actively have conversations with us. Plus there's this hardwired notion in our culture that humans are inherently superior to all animals but that's a very self-centered and short-sighted understanding of the world. We are more intelligent, yeah, but that's about it.

neom 2y ago
I'd argue we've gone far beyond alienated. We're actively rejecting and dismantling, en-masse, the very systems we foundationally operate within.
- verisimi 2y ago
  Rejecting the systems that have trained us into being happy to dedicate ourselves towards a series of communal goals that we have had no input in deciding, nor any means of avoiding; 'growing' the individual to identify with their governance system and the social infrastructure over oneself; are these systems an individual should want to identify with? From a moral perspective, is it the right thing to dismantle de-humanising systems?
  - neom 2y ago
    -climate change - physical health (microplastics, pollution etc) - loneliness and mental health epidemic - unknown unknowns of currently tech 4 off the top of my head. I'm sure I can think of more.
jaharios 2y ago
I agree, I am not saying that it is not nurture, in fact the opposite. Hyper focused on "human way of thinking" is not something you are born with, you adapt to it. In fact if you don't do it early you will never be able to 100%, in a way we rewire our brain to cope with how we want it to operate to be able fit in. Our language for example, requires to be "forced on us" from early stages or you will never be able to "get it" [1] > Most humans simply ignore animals when they communicate. Both because they're ignorant and because they won't bother to listen. You can't expect an animal to talk with human words, but they talk all the time. Pets actively have conversations with us. With my dog I can understand angry/playful/sad/afraid/(give me food) barking/sounds and especially body language. But hearing "dog words" in random barking? Impossible. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experimen...
- unification_fan 2y ago
  > With my dog I can understand angry/playful/sad/afraid/(give me food) barking/sounds and especially body language. But hearing "dog words" in random barking? Impossible. No what I meant is that animals use body language, smells and all kinds of non-auditory cues in order to communicate. And they rely a lot on behavioral reinforcement in order to communicate efficiently with us. They don't really use verbal language like we do and therefore they also lack the tools that are required for abstract conversation. They don't talk about complex topics like astrophysics. They usually just talk about their immediate needs but they can also convey more complex emotions like trust and guilt -- displaying a rudimentary theory of mind. Regardless, there are many interactions you can have with your pets that entail a string of questions and answers. Example: 1. My cat comes up to me and sits there staring. She means: "I need something of you, but I can wait" 1a. If I don't get up in a while, she will come closer and bump my leg. She means: "come on, please" 2. I ask her what's up and get up from my chair to signal that I am ready 3. She recognizes this signal, having seen it many times before, and heads for the bowl/the door/the balcony/the cat tree depending on what she needs 4. I understand her need and give her what she wants 5. She trills or purrs to tell me that I'm on the right track/my assessment is correct/to thank me That is clearly a conversation, albeit a simple one. Lately she's become addicted to bird and mice videos on Youtube so she comes up to me and stares intently at my laptop and/or desktop until I put those on for her.
idiotsecant 2y ago
>We have become alienated from the environment we evolved in. Before we start painting with all the colors of the wind too much in this thread, this is not entirely a bad thing. We are removed from stressors such as 'being eaten by large predators' and 'dying of infections from wounds'. There is a lot of 'nature' that out ancestors would be quite happy to be 'alienated' from.
- taurknaut 2y ago
  Sure, but this completely neglects the aspects of humanity we left behind moving into sedentary communities. We will be forever blind to what we lost, and the morons among us will claim we lost nothing.
  - theshackleford 2y ago
    > morons Ah yes, that old chestnut. “Anyone who disagrees with me is a dum dum” How persuasive your arguments are.
    - serf 2y ago
      do you have a better word to describe people who explain that they know every fork in the road that humanity has taken so far was the best choice? Best they can do is point at our current existence -- something that individual forks may not have ever had the ability to change the outcome of. I agree that 'moron' is a bad choice - this type of bad actor we're describing isn't as innocent as a moron.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    Which parts are you referring to? The part where you kill a guy with a rock if he looks at your wife funny? We always lose something when evolving, that's okay. You can keep living in whatever way you want to, as long as it doesn't disrupt the liberty of another person. If you're mad that the world embraced secularity over spiritualism, or that men aren't fist-fighting for resources, blame yourself for not modernizing. Without any serious examples, your comment basically just reads like a trad dogwhistle.
darkerside 2y ago
> We are more intelligent, yeah, but that's about it. You say that like it's not the defining characteristic of our power over the natural world

neom 2y ago

I'd argue we've gone far beyond alienated. We're actively rejecting and dismantling, en-masse, the very systems we foundationally operate within.

verisimi 2y ago
Rejecting the systems that have trained us into being happy to dedicate ourselves towards a series of communal goals that we have had no input in deciding, nor any means of avoiding; 'growing' the individual to identify with their governance system and the social infrastructure over oneself; are these systems an individual should want to identify with? From a moral perspective, is it the right thing to dismantle de-humanising systems?
- neom 2y ago
  -climate change - physical health (microplastics, pollution etc) - loneliness and mental health epidemic - unknown unknowns of currently tech 4 off the top of my head. I'm sure I can think of more.

jaharios 2y ago

I agree, I am not saying that it is not nurture, in fact the opposite. Hyper focused on "human way of thinking" is not something you are born with, you adapt to it. In fact if you don't do it early you will never be able to 100%, in a way we rewire our brain to cope with how we want it to operate to be able fit in. Our language for example, requires to be "forced on us" from early stages or you will never be able to "get it" [1] > Most humans simply ignore animals when they communicate. Both because they're ignorant and because they won't bother to listen. You can't expect an animal to talk with human words, but they talk all the time. Pets actively have conversations with us. With my dog I can understand angry/playful/sad/afraid/(give me food) barking/sounds and especially body language. But hearing "dog words" in random barking? Impossible. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experimen...

unification_fan 2y ago
> With my dog I can understand angry/playful/sad/afraid/(give me food) barking/sounds and especially body language. But hearing "dog words" in random barking? Impossible. No what I meant is that animals use body language, smells and all kinds of non-auditory cues in order to communicate. And they rely a lot on behavioral reinforcement in order to communicate efficiently with us. They don't really use verbal language like we do and therefore they also lack the tools that are required for abstract conversation. They don't talk about complex topics like astrophysics. They usually just talk about their immediate needs but they can also convey more complex emotions like trust and guilt -- displaying a rudimentary theory of mind. Regardless, there are many interactions you can have with your pets that entail a string of questions and answers. Example: 1. My cat comes up to me and sits there staring. She means: "I need something of you, but I can wait" 1a. If I don't get up in a while, she will come closer and bump my leg. She means: "come on, please" 2. I ask her what's up and get up from my chair to signal that I am ready 3. She recognizes this signal, having seen it many times before, and heads for the bowl/the door/the balcony/the cat tree depending on what she needs 4. I understand her need and give her what she wants 5. She trills or purrs to tell me that I'm on the right track/my assessment is correct/to thank me That is clearly a conversation, albeit a simple one. Lately she's become addicted to bird and mice videos on Youtube so she comes up to me and stares intently at my laptop and/or desktop until I put those on for her.

idiotsecant 2y ago

>We have become alienated from the environment we evolved in. Before we start painting with all the colors of the wind too much in this thread, this is not entirely a bad thing. We are removed from stressors such as 'being eaten by large predators' and 'dying of infections from wounds'. There is a lot of 'nature' that out ancestors would be quite happy to be 'alienated' from.

taurknaut 2y ago
Sure, but this completely neglects the aspects of humanity we left behind moving into sedentary communities. We will be forever blind to what we lost, and the morons among us will claim we lost nothing.
- theshackleford 2y ago
  > morons Ah yes, that old chestnut. “Anyone who disagrees with me is a dum dum” How persuasive your arguments are.
  - serf 2y ago
    do you have a better word to describe people who explain that they know every fork in the road that humanity has taken so far was the best choice? Best they can do is point at our current existence -- something that individual forks may not have ever had the ability to change the outcome of. I agree that 'moron' is a bad choice - this type of bad actor we're describing isn't as innocent as a moron.
- talldayo 2y ago
  Which parts are you referring to? The part where you kill a guy with a rock if he looks at your wife funny? We always lose something when evolving, that's okay. You can keep living in whatever way you want to, as long as it doesn't disrupt the liberty of another person. If you're mad that the world embraced secularity over spiritualism, or that men aren't fist-fighting for resources, blame yourself for not modernizing. Without any serious examples, your comment basically just reads like a trad dogwhistle.

darkerside 2y ago

> We are more intelligent, yeah, but that's about it. You say that like it's not the defining characteristic of our power over the natural world