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As a lifetime employee, I don't want better labor protection laws. One of the reasons that America has better job prospects than most of the developed world is

As a lifetime employee, I don't want better labor protection laws. One of the reasons that America has better job prospects than most of the developed world is exactly because of its flexibility in hiring and firing people. Blue Origin hired thousands of people in the past few years because they knew they could reduce the labor force in case of a business contraction or poor decisions in hiring. I've left a country with amazing labor protection laws because it was really hard to find a good job and salary was relatively low because employers had to take into account the huge risks of hiring even a single person.

rednafi 2y ago
It’s a different tradeoff. I come from a country with a weak passport, which limits my opportunities a lot. It’s hard to explain that to someone who can travel wherever they want, so it’s a bit different for me. When visas are tied to jobs, getting laid off means something completely different—even in a good labor market. I had to move from the US to one of those countries with strong labor protections. But I agree that salaries take a massive hit because of this, and opportunities are reduced too. I’ve seen the opposite as well—people losing their residence permits and healthcare coverage, and then going bankrupt after a layoff. For me, lower pay for better labor protection is a sensible tradeoff. But of course, your mileage may vary.
- Denvercoder9 2y ago
  A better solution is to not tie visas to jobs. While at it, also stop tying healthcare insurance to jobs. As someone from a country with strong labor protections, I'm in favor of making it easier to fire people. There's too much dead weight around in companies here. But being fired shouldn't be a life threatening event.
  - rednafi 2y ago
    This is something I can get behind. I don’t want to be a deadweight to a company and still expect to get paid handsomely. But the reality is that tying visas and healthcare to jobs, and treating expats who pay taxes in the 90th percentile like unwanted immigrants, is a bad deal for everyone involved. I do hope this gets fixed at some point—I’d love to go back. I made some great friends there. But until then, I still stand for better labor protection.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      Treating anyone Adam unwanted immigrant is a bad deal for everyone involved. I don't understand how America (I'm an American) has diverged so far from what the literal Statue of Liberty stands for. If someone wants to come here and try make a life for themselves, by all means come and give it your best shot.
btreecat 2y ago
> As a lifetime employee, I don't want better labor protection laws. As a lifetime employee, I know we need better labor protection laws and enforcement. Wage theft is one of the largest sources of crime in America. https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-paychecks-each-year/ https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...
- eastbound 2y ago
  In France I can have a beginner engineer with diploma from a good school at 38k€ (52k€ total cost) or a senior for 70k€ (105k€). But we had Mistral and it’s so bad in the market that Macron asked for 109b€ additional investment to be able to keep France competitive. We also had Daily Motion but it was also second to market, like 0,5% of Youtube size. So yeah labour protection laws give you very cheap engineers with 35hrs per week and 7 weeks of holidays per year. Good luck competing!
  - mirekrusin 2y ago
    Exactly France is good example what not to do.
  - rednafi 2y ago
    You can’t win every war. Germany is a bit better, but not by a large margin. Wages are higher than in France, but so is the cost of living. That said, Europe isn’t struggling because of labor protection rules but because of its culture. There are 69 countries with 69 different languages, and each of them wants high-paid foreigners to learn their language. I saw the same thing in France, Germany, and Finland. Why on earth would I care about German or French when I speak and write native-level English? Another issue is the vacation culture. Three weeks of vacation is incredibly generous, but people here get even more. I’m switching teams because my current one can’t ship anything—different people are on exceedingly long vacations at different times, and there’s no coordination. Europe is poorer and full of red tape. The fragmentation of languages and regulations doesn’t help. It’s a massive continent, yet the only real tech hubs are in Munich, Berlin, Amsterdam, and London. The rest are just running underpaying sweatshops.

rednafi 2y ago

It’s a different tradeoff. I come from a country with a weak passport, which limits my opportunities a lot. It’s hard to explain that to someone who can travel wherever they want, so it’s a bit different for me. When visas are tied to jobs, getting laid off means something completely different—even in a good labor market. I had to move from the US to one of those countries with strong labor protections. But I agree that salaries take a massive hit because of this, and opportunities are reduced too. I’ve seen the opposite as well—people losing their residence permits and healthcare coverage, and then going bankrupt after a layoff. For me, lower pay for better labor protection is a sensible tradeoff. But of course, your mileage may vary.

Denvercoder9 2y ago
A better solution is to not tie visas to jobs. While at it, also stop tying healthcare insurance to jobs. As someone from a country with strong labor protections, I'm in favor of making it easier to fire people. There's too much dead weight around in companies here. But being fired shouldn't be a life threatening event.
- rednafi 2y ago
  This is something I can get behind. I don’t want to be a deadweight to a company and still expect to get paid handsomely. But the reality is that tying visas and healthcare to jobs, and treating expats who pay taxes in the 90th percentile like unwanted immigrants, is a bad deal for everyone involved. I do hope this gets fixed at some point—I’d love to go back. I made some great friends there. But until then, I still stand for better labor protection.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Treating anyone Adam unwanted immigrant is a bad deal for everyone involved. I don't understand how America (I'm an American) has diverged so far from what the literal Statue of Liberty stands for. If someone wants to come here and try make a life for themselves, by all means come and give it your best shot.

btreecat 2y ago

> As a lifetime employee, I don't want better labor protection laws. As a lifetime employee, I know we need better labor protection laws and enforcement. Wage theft is one of the largest sources of crime in America. https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-paychecks-each-year/ https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...

eastbound 2y ago
In France I can have a beginner engineer with diploma from a good school at 38k€ (52k€ total cost) or a senior for 70k€ (105k€). But we had Mistral and it’s so bad in the market that Macron asked for 109b€ additional investment to be able to keep France competitive. We also had Daily Motion but it was also second to market, like 0,5% of Youtube size. So yeah labour protection laws give you very cheap engineers with 35hrs per week and 7 weeks of holidays per year. Good luck competing!
- mirekrusin 2y ago
  Exactly France is good example what not to do.
- rednafi 2y ago
  You can’t win every war. Germany is a bit better, but not by a large margin. Wages are higher than in France, but so is the cost of living. That said, Europe isn’t struggling because of labor protection rules but because of its culture. There are 69 countries with 69 different languages, and each of them wants high-paid foreigners to learn their language. I saw the same thing in France, Germany, and Finland. Why on earth would I care about German or French when I speak and write native-level English? Another issue is the vacation culture. Three weeks of vacation is incredibly generous, but people here get even more. I’m switching teams because my current one can’t ship anything—different people are on exceedingly long vacations at different times, and there’s no coordination. Europe is poorer and full of red tape. The fragmentation of languages and regulations doesn’t help. It’s a massive continent, yet the only real tech hubs are in Munich, Berlin, Amsterdam, and London. The rest are just running underpaying sweatshops.