4 ms·

I'd argue that we go about bullying the wrong way. I think it's one of those parts of human behaviour that has been shamed away but also our dark side should be

by navane 2y ago

I'd argue that we go about bullying the wrong way. I think it's one of those parts of human behaviour that has been shamed away but also our dark side should be embraced. It should be brought on the forefront in our youth as it is ruling our lives as adults.

rzzzt 2y ago
IME bullying happens in the following steps: - X bullies Y - Y is troubled by this, involves authority A - A is not willing to intervene for any amount of reasons (non-exhaustive list: thinks it's an X-said-Y-said situation, doesn't want to, does not see behavior of X as out of place, likes X, doesn't like Y, is also bullied by X, etc.), gives useless advice that X and Y should settle matters between themselves - Y lashes out - both are punished (occasionally just Y) - Y is physically removed from the situation (quits, goes to a different school) Which part can be improved from the point of Y to get a more favorable outcome?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- navane 2y ago
  The idea that there is an authority that will save you might create bad habits. In adult world there is no such authority and bullies run the world. Either you garnish support from the bystanders, or you bully back, I don't know the correct implementation either. Maybe bullies deserve the world and shouldn't be treated so negatively in our narratives. Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Maybe we need more bullies, not less, to make our system more resilience against them.
  - kruffalon 2y ago
    > Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Agreed, Bs are the key here, and it connects neatly to another concept that I believe is misunderstood: the fight, flight, freeze and fawn response (from psychology) While lions sure are dangerous that problem was solved by evolution by becoming social group creatures so the big danger is being left out of the group. That's where the imminent/perceived danger is: being alone puts us at risk.
    - vacuity 2y ago
      I think both of you are building up the notion that we are built for bullying, which I say is true. We are social and emotional creatures first and rational creatures second. The solution requires people standing up and being firm but respectful and self-critical. If that use of power is considered bullying, so be it, but I'm not sure that terminology is useful. We need to appeal to rational use of force, which is more of an ideal than anything else. It is in our failings to acknowledge or commit to that ideal that we continue to allow bullying.
      - navane 2y ago
        I'm with you on the first half, but I don't understand the language you use from "We need to..." onwards, which gets to the practical application of what we should do.
        vacuity 2y ago
        We should be rational creatures first. That isn't really achievable, and I resent that, but I think it's still a goal worth having. And of course one needs power in some form or another, whether that's the capacity for physical violence, social persuasion, funding, etc.. For someone to both be powerful and rational, they would be a force for good. Encourage cultivating both qualities in balance, particularly with "the masses" leveraging social forces instead of being bystanders or accomplices. We shouldn't tolerate, let alone celebrate, anti-intellectualism and force used for self-interest, which is to say, bullying. We need to formulate a different culture that encourages critical thinking, honesty, benevolence, and power.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kruffalon 2y ago
I would like to argue that we go about education and the educational institutions the wrong way, but I really can't, I have no backing except my own experiences. What I think/feel/sense/intuit is that kindergarten, preschool and the first years of school should focus entirely on how to interact with other people one-on-one and in groups with respect for everyone including yourself. I suspect there is a lot to learn from from what we are trying to develop around sexual consent wrt setting and enforcing boundaries. With more recent societal understanding around mental health, generational trauma, neurodivergence I think it would be possible to achieve quite big changes around this topic.

by navane 2y ago

rzzzt 2y ago

IME bullying happens in the following steps: - X bullies Y - Y is troubled by this, involves authority A - A is not willing to intervene for any amount of reasons (non-exhaustive list: thinks it's an X-said-Y-said situation, doesn't want to, does not see behavior of X as out of place, likes X, doesn't like Y, is also bullied by X, etc.), gives useless advice that X and Y should settle matters between themselves - Y lashes out - both are punished (occasionally just Y) - Y is physically removed from the situation (quits, goes to a different school) Which part can be improved from the point of Y to get a more favorable outcome?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
navane 2y ago
The idea that there is an authority that will save you might create bad habits. In adult world there is no such authority and bullies run the world. Either you garnish support from the bystanders, or you bully back, I don't know the correct implementation either. Maybe bullies deserve the world and shouldn't be treated so negatively in our narratives. Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Maybe we need more bullies, not less, to make our system more resilience against them.
- kruffalon 2y ago
  > Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Agreed, Bs are the key here, and it connects neatly to another concept that I believe is misunderstood: the fight, flight, freeze and fawn response (from psychology) While lions sure are dangerous that problem was solved by evolution by becoming social group creatures so the big danger is being left out of the group. That's where the imminent/perceived danger is: being alone puts us at risk.
  - vacuity 2y ago
    I think both of you are building up the notion that we are built for bullying, which I say is true. We are social and emotional creatures first and rational creatures second. The solution requires people standing up and being firm but respectful and self-critical. If that use of power is considered bullying, so be it, but I'm not sure that terminology is useful. We need to appeal to rational use of force, which is more of an ideal than anything else. It is in our failings to acknowledge or commit to that ideal that we continue to allow bullying.
    - navane 2y ago
      I'm with you on the first half, but I don't understand the language you use from "We need to..." onwards, which gets to the practical application of what we should do.
      - vacuity 2y ago
        We should be rational creatures first. That isn't really achievable, and I resent that, but I think it's still a goal worth having. And of course one needs power in some form or another, whether that's the capacity for physical violence, social persuasion, funding, etc.. For someone to both be powerful and rational, they would be a force for good. Encourage cultivating both qualities in balance, particularly with "the masses" leveraging social forces instead of being bystanders or accomplices. We shouldn't tolerate, let alone celebrate, anti-intellectualism and force used for self-interest, which is to say, bullying. We need to formulate a different culture that encourages critical thinking, honesty, benevolence, and power.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kruffalon 2y ago

I would like to argue that we go about education and the educational institutions the wrong way, but I really can't, I have no backing except my own experiences. What I think/feel/sense/intuit is that kindergarten, preschool and the first years of school should focus entirely on how to interact with other people one-on-one and in groups with respect for everyone including yourself. I suspect there is a lot to learn from from what we are trying to develop around sexual consent wrt setting and enforcing boundaries. With more recent societal understanding around mental health, generational trauma, neurodivergence I think it would be possible to achieve quite big changes around this topic.