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The American right has (always?) been anti-government overreach traditionally. I don't actually think Trump or Musk are particularly conservative or right wing

The American right has (always?) been anti-government overreach traditionally. I don't actually think Trump or Musk are particularly conservative or right wing (they'll say and do what gets them the support) but on this topic they are actually very much in line with political tradition. I think they're overshooting here and will need to correct, but I get the impression as an outsider that the American people who voted Trump in are sick and tired of a social structure that isn't benefiting them and seems to give them no "out" or way forward. They will take the wild and crazy antics/experiments because hey, it wasn't exactly working before anyway, was it?

lelandfe 2y ago
Grover Norquist, 2001: > I don’t want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.
- XorNot 2y ago
  > Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. Frankly I don't see how you read Norquist's statement any other way: he doesn't want to abolish the government, he just wants to be sure it holds no dominion over him personally.
watwut 2y ago
American right was always pro government overreach when it comes to cops, military and so on. The are anti government when the government is helping someone they dont like. They are against public schools, public health care, consumer protection, safety rules. Trump or Musk are very much American right as it always was, except without pretension of respectability.
- michaelscott 2y ago
  Yeah this is exactly my impression as well
eesmith 2y ago
The American left has also (always?) been anti-government overreach too. It's all a matter of who gets to define the "over" in "overreach". Laws which enforce racial segregation are overreach, for those in the American left who support equality. Federal laws which override state segregation are overreach, for those in the American right who support structural racism. Marijuana prohibition laws - overreach, or not? Anti-mask laws - overreach, or not? Required prayer in school - overreach, or not? Anti-pollution laws - overreach, or not?
- kelnos 2y ago
  Please stop with the false equivalencies. I'm incredibly tired of these types of bad-faith arguments.
  - anon7000 2y ago
    It’s not a false equivalency. The right frequently claims the government over reaches, and then enact their own Christian policies which have a tendency to overreach. Heard of those book bans? That’s conservative Christian overreach into state policy, which takes away freedom. What’s bad faith is claiming that more social restriction is not a form of overreach. Edit: pollution is actually a very good example. In my view, polluting my property via air or water pollution is a violation of my property rights, and is therefore unconstitutional. Companies doing so are overreaching. I would like the government to reach out and stop that. Certain Conservatives somehow don’t share this view, and think businesses should have the freedom to pollute, and wish to abolish the EPA. The government would be overstepping, to them.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    It isn't a false equivalency. I'm undermining the entire assertion by pointing out the 'over' in 'overreach' is entirely in the eye of the beholder. By definition, "overreach" must be beyond the point of acceptable action, so if you're going to use that term you need to say why it's overreach. I think michaelscott, as an outsider, has bought the propaganda the right has pushing for decades, without realizing it's a falsehood. By recasting it I mean to provide context about why it's a falsehood. Some nudists think it's overreach for the government to require clothing in public? That's not really a left/right thing. Is it government overreach to have Daylight Saving Time? That's another one that seems equally pro/anti.

lelandfe 2y ago

Grover Norquist, 2001: > I don’t want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.

XorNot 2y ago
> Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. Frankly I don't see how you read Norquist's statement any other way: he doesn't want to abolish the government, he just wants to be sure it holds no dominion over him personally.

watwut 2y ago

American right was always pro government overreach when it comes to cops, military and so on. The are anti government when the government is helping someone they dont like. They are against public schools, public health care, consumer protection, safety rules. Trump or Musk are very much American right as it always was, except without pretension of respectability.

michaelscott 2y ago
Yeah this is exactly my impression as well

eesmith 2y ago

The American left has also (always?) been anti-government overreach too. It's all a matter of who gets to define the "over" in "overreach". Laws which enforce racial segregation are overreach, for those in the American left who support equality. Federal laws which override state segregation are overreach, for those in the American right who support structural racism. Marijuana prohibition laws - overreach, or not? Anti-mask laws - overreach, or not? Required prayer in school - overreach, or not? Anti-pollution laws - overreach, or not?

kelnos 2y ago
Please stop with the false equivalencies. I'm incredibly tired of these types of bad-faith arguments.
- anon7000 2y ago
  It’s not a false equivalency. The right frequently claims the government over reaches, and then enact their own Christian policies which have a tendency to overreach. Heard of those book bans? That’s conservative Christian overreach into state policy, which takes away freedom. What’s bad faith is claiming that more social restriction is not a form of overreach. Edit: pollution is actually a very good example. In my view, polluting my property via air or water pollution is a violation of my property rights, and is therefore unconstitutional. Companies doing so are overreaching. I would like the government to reach out and stop that. Certain Conservatives somehow don’t share this view, and think businesses should have the freedom to pollute, and wish to abolish the EPA. The government would be overstepping, to them.
- eesmith 2y ago
  It isn't a false equivalency. I'm undermining the entire assertion by pointing out the 'over' in 'overreach' is entirely in the eye of the beholder. By definition, "overreach" must be beyond the point of acceptable action, so if you're going to use that term you need to say why it's overreach. I think michaelscott, as an outsider, has bought the propaganda the right has pushing for decades, without realizing it's a falsehood. By recasting it I mean to provide context about why it's a falsehood. Some nudists think it's overreach for the government to require clothing in public? That's not really a left/right thing. Is it government overreach to have Daylight Saving Time? That's another one that seems equally pro/anti.