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This piece reminded me of a few things I think about a bit too much: - I imagine there would be almost zero storytelling (as we know it) if people where better

This piece reminded me of a few things I think about a bit too much: - I imagine there would be almost zero storytelling (as we know it) if people where better at communicating like this (as most plots would just seem weird). - something about this made me think about bullying and how we haven't managed to "solve" that problem (for kids or adults) - there are a few corporate-speak words in the text that makes me question myself if I've failed to realise that this is a sarcastic piece, but I'm 95% sure it's an honest text with clear intentions. - I'm probably misremembering a lot, but I quite like how this expands a tiny bit on Non-Violent Communication to include the "we" that is so important in groups. [Edit] added the word "much" in the first paragraph.

_def 2y ago
As someone who can be a bit blind for social cues etc, care to elaborate a bit on "storytelling as we know it"? I have a hunch on what you mean but I'm uncertain
- kusokurae 2y ago
  Most stories are built with a heavy reliance on using peoples fundamental unwillingness to communicate with other people in mind to manufacture conflict and therefore narrative progress. A majority of films and book plots, were they taken and rewritten by a person who rejects the idea that it's acceptable to expect others to read one's mind, would end partway into the story.
  - TylerE 2y ago
    Aka “the idiot plot” - where the entire issue at hand could be solved if any single main character stops acting like an idiot for 5 minutes and just says to the other character(s) what’s actually going on
    - exe34 2y ago
      I used to be the person who would always tell it as it is - it doesn't work in general, because often times people don't want to hear it. They treat it as a grievous bodily harm and they lash out in defence. small talk and euphemisms evolved for a good reason - you need to be able to judge what's going on in the other person's head before you risk exposing yourself to their wrath.
      - kruffalon 2y ago
        There are different ways to say the same thing and using language like in the linked article often allows people to listen better and not get defensive. I find that using "softer" language, since it requires more work, also often sharpens my message to really say what I think is important. A bit like a rubber duck[0] for my inner script writer. ----- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
        exe34 2y ago
        as an autist, I used to consider that as manipulation and therefore unethical. thankfully I got that virtue beaten out of me by life and now I go for pragmatism.
        vacuity 2y ago
        I have some issues with the sentiments in this thread, which seems to be saying that stories are good in real life discourse too. To some extent I agree, but I think it is overexaggerated. TL;DR: This is all well and good in current society, but I feel that says a lot about the flaws of current society. "Reality is stranger than fiction because fiction needs to make sense, but reality doesn't". Stories are written for a purpose, whether that's to entertain, to instruct, etc.. That's why it makes sense to have plot twists and unrealistic tension. Stories are meant to be contrived to some degree; that's what makes them valuable. But I think real life should have a plot that isn't like a tidy, comfortable story. If there is to be a plot, it should be complex and strange. > I used to be the person who would always tell it as it is - it doesn't work in general, because often times people don't want to hear it. Indeed, but I'm not sure then that couching your language towards them is better. It won't ease most people into your narrative. It will just allow them to sink further into a narrative. I think moderation is generally correct, but moderation that isn't the golden mean can also be quite harmful. (See "Letter from Birmingham Jail" for MLK Jr.'s thoughts on white moderates during the Civil Rights movement.) > small talk and euphemisms evolved for a good reason Evolution by natural selection does not work like this. "I observe feature A" does not remotely mean "feature A is beneficial". It just means "feature A is not a dealbreaker". We as humans have certainly evolved for gossiping and storytelling, and it is often beneficial to appease the group, but attributing a bigger moral reason on that line is doubtful. It is not necessarily good that we engage in so much "small talk and euphemisms" (I would even say it's quite bad), it's just that we've made it comfortable to live like that. > I find that using "softer" language, since it requires more work, also often sharpens my message to really say what I think is important. I disagree on both points. "Softer language" is easier to grasp for since we are accustomed to it, and even for the speaker it may be a hassle to distinguish using it carelessly versus deliberately. Since it works as a shield and intentionally employs ambiguity, I doubt it communicates the actual message well. I am myself a big fan of stories, and I do see value in using them in real life to enhance communication. But I think this requires a lot more care and scrutiny than we normally use. Our whole culture around communication is flawed.
- kruffalon 2y ago
  I meant what @kusokurae wrote in another answer to your comment, although I would not have been able to express it as clearly. Something about that comment also set off a line of thinking around the origins of our western storytelling paradigms and how not-in-person communication relied on someone else moving between two places to deliver a message (either spoken or written) rather than instantly being able to communicate with anyone through wires as we have been able to for quite some time now.
navane 2y ago
I'd argue that we go about bullying the wrong way. I think it's one of those parts of human behaviour that has been shamed away but also our dark side should be embraced. It should be brought on the forefront in our youth as it is ruling our lives as adults.
- rzzzt 2y ago
  IME bullying happens in the following steps: - X bullies Y - Y is troubled by this, involves authority A - A is not willing to intervene for any amount of reasons (non-exhaustive list: thinks it's an X-said-Y-said situation, doesn't want to, does not see behavior of X as out of place, likes X, doesn't like Y, is also bullied by X, etc.), gives useless advice that X and Y should settle matters between themselves - Y lashes out - both are punished (occasionally just Y) - Y is physically removed from the situation (quits, goes to a different school) Which part can be improved from the point of Y to get a more favorable outcome?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - navane 2y ago
    The idea that there is an authority that will save you might create bad habits. In adult world there is no such authority and bullies run the world. Either you garnish support from the bystanders, or you bully back, I don't know the correct implementation either. Maybe bullies deserve the world and shouldn't be treated so negatively in our narratives. Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Maybe we need more bullies, not less, to make our system more resilience against them.
    - kruffalon 2y ago
      > Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Agreed, Bs are the key here, and it connects neatly to another concept that I believe is misunderstood: the fight, flight, freeze and fawn response (from psychology) While lions sure are dangerous that problem was solved by evolution by becoming social group creatures so the big danger is being left out of the group. That's where the imminent/perceived danger is: being alone puts us at risk.

_def 2y ago

As someone who can be a bit blind for social cues etc, care to elaborate a bit on "storytelling as we know it"? I have a hunch on what you mean but I'm uncertain

kusokurae 2y ago
Most stories are built with a heavy reliance on using peoples fundamental unwillingness to communicate with other people in mind to manufacture conflict and therefore narrative progress. A majority of films and book plots, were they taken and rewritten by a person who rejects the idea that it's acceptable to expect others to read one's mind, would end partway into the story.
- TylerE 2y ago
  Aka “the idiot plot” - where the entire issue at hand could be solved if any single main character stops acting like an idiot for 5 minutes and just says to the other character(s) what’s actually going on
  - exe34 2y ago
    I used to be the person who would always tell it as it is - it doesn't work in general, because often times people don't want to hear it. They treat it as a grievous bodily harm and they lash out in defence. small talk and euphemisms evolved for a good reason - you need to be able to judge what's going on in the other person's head before you risk exposing yourself to their wrath.
    - kruffalon 2y ago
      There are different ways to say the same thing and using language like in the linked article often allows people to listen better and not get defensive. I find that using "softer" language, since it requires more work, also often sharpens my message to really say what I think is important. A bit like a rubber duck[0] for my inner script writer. ----- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
      - exe34 2y ago
        as an autist, I used to consider that as manipulation and therefore unethical. thankfully I got that virtue beaten out of me by life and now I go for pragmatism.
        vacuity 2y ago
        I have some issues with the sentiments in this thread, which seems to be saying that stories are good in real life discourse too. To some extent I agree, but I think it is overexaggerated. TL;DR: This is all well and good in current society, but I feel that says a lot about the flaws of current society. "Reality is stranger than fiction because fiction needs to make sense, but reality doesn't". Stories are written for a purpose, whether that's to entertain, to instruct, etc.. That's why it makes sense to have plot twists and unrealistic tension. Stories are meant to be contrived to some degree; that's what makes them valuable. But I think real life should have a plot that isn't like a tidy, comfortable story. If there is to be a plot, it should be complex and strange. > I used to be the person who would always tell it as it is - it doesn't work in general, because often times people don't want to hear it. Indeed, but I'm not sure then that couching your language towards them is better. It won't ease most people into your narrative. It will just allow them to sink further into a narrative. I think moderation is generally correct, but moderation that isn't the golden mean can also be quite harmful. (See "Letter from Birmingham Jail" for MLK Jr.'s thoughts on white moderates during the Civil Rights movement.) > small talk and euphemisms evolved for a good reason Evolution by natural selection does not work like this. "I observe feature A" does not remotely mean "feature A is beneficial". It just means "feature A is not a dealbreaker". We as humans have certainly evolved for gossiping and storytelling, and it is often beneficial to appease the group, but attributing a bigger moral reason on that line is doubtful. It is not necessarily good that we engage in so much "small talk and euphemisms" (I would even say it's quite bad), it's just that we've made it comfortable to live like that. > I find that using "softer" language, since it requires more work, also often sharpens my message to really say what I think is important. I disagree on both points. "Softer language" is easier to grasp for since we are accustomed to it, and even for the speaker it may be a hassle to distinguish using it carelessly versus deliberately. Since it works as a shield and intentionally employs ambiguity, I doubt it communicates the actual message well. I am myself a big fan of stories, and I do see value in using them in real life to enhance communication. But I think this requires a lot more care and scrutiny than we normally use. Our whole culture around communication is flawed.
kruffalon 2y ago
I meant what @kusokurae wrote in another answer to your comment, although I would not have been able to express it as clearly. Something about that comment also set off a line of thinking around the origins of our western storytelling paradigms and how not-in-person communication relied on someone else moving between two places to deliver a message (either spoken or written) rather than instantly being able to communicate with anyone through wires as we have been able to for quite some time now.

navane 2y ago

I'd argue that we go about bullying the wrong way. I think it's one of those parts of human behaviour that has been shamed away but also our dark side should be embraced. It should be brought on the forefront in our youth as it is ruling our lives as adults.

rzzzt 2y ago
IME bullying happens in the following steps: - X bullies Y - Y is troubled by this, involves authority A - A is not willing to intervene for any amount of reasons (non-exhaustive list: thinks it's an X-said-Y-said situation, doesn't want to, does not see behavior of X as out of place, likes X, doesn't like Y, is also bullied by X, etc.), gives useless advice that X and Y should settle matters between themselves - Y lashes out - both are punished (occasionally just Y) - Y is physically removed from the situation (quits, goes to a different school) Which part can be improved from the point of Y to get a more favorable outcome?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- navane 2y ago
  The idea that there is an authority that will save you might create bad habits. In adult world there is no such authority and bullies run the world. Either you garnish support from the bystanders, or you bully back, I don't know the correct implementation either. Maybe bullies deserve the world and shouldn't be treated so negatively in our narratives. Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Maybe we need more bullies, not less, to make our system more resilience against them.
  - kruffalon 2y ago
    > Also you're completely missing the bystanders B in your analysis. Without them there is no bullying. Then it just becomes robbery or molestation. Agreed, Bs are the key here, and it connects neatly to another concept that I believe is misunderstood: the fight, flight, freeze and fawn response (from psychology) While lions sure are dangerous that problem was solved by evolution by becoming social group creatures so the big danger is being left out of the group. That's where the imminent/perceived danger is: being alone puts us at risk.