4 ms·

Karp is exactly correct. America has ideals and values that are worth fighting for, such as free speech, civil rights, (mostly) free markets, and so on. We are

Karp is exactly correct. America has ideals and values that are worth fighting for, such as free speech, civil rights, (mostly) free markets, and so on. We are seeing a revival of more substantial companies that can help uphold those values, after wasting two decades on social media or whatever. The comments here on HN are disappointingly shallow and suggest people aren’t reading the article or are taking the most uncharitable interpretations to support an attack on Karp or what he’s saying.

Ozzie_osman 2y ago
> America has ideals and values that are worth fighting for, such as free speech, civil rights, (mostly) free markets, and so on. "I say the whole world must learn of our peaceful ways... by force!"
- inemesitaffia 2y ago
  Always fascinating that the people with anti-police politics never go into policing (even in areas that strongly share their political leanings) but expect different outcomes magically
  - soganess 2y ago
    magically = "group action driven by a shared understanding of the common good. Buttressed by clear through-line that connects what each individual has to give up in terms of time/freedom/autonomy to the benefit of themselves and their community." It's always fascinating when folks see the stick as the only vehicle for change. But hey, there is a weird honesty to it. The only way we can keep people 'in line' when their lot in life is all lemons ...is naked force.
    - inemesitaffia 2y ago
      Mao: Power and the Gun.
      - soganess 2y ago
        Misquoting (in translation) the sophomoric military machinations of a person who never served but who's polices managed to kill millions isn't going to curry favor here. Group action with clear purpose is compatible with capital. In fact, we have a plurality of names for it; businesses, clubs, linux kernel development...
        inemesitaffia 2y ago
        Misquoting my arse. Mao didn't need to hold a gun if he could control those with it. The currently crumbling pax Americana wasn't held by just capital and group action. You think Xi would be fine if the people in his country controlling the guns decided they want someone else? I didn't just talk about the stick though. When you promote the idea that all cops are bastards, and make sure people who will police the way you want don't go into policing, you'll get bastards. Doesn't matter if your community votes DSA, Green or Communist. If you don't have people that align with your ideology in areas that matter or aren't incentivised to you won't get the changes you desire. How will you get change when the people who want the changes refuse to work or have their people in the organizations that they want change? And even disincentivize it. Barring the use of force it's the functional elites, not the hoi polloi (that manage to have time for protests and such) that drive change. You can tell from the biography of pretty much every activist or philosopher you know. As for Linux, it takes people; individuals on the inside to drive change too. As anyone who follows development there will know. If the people that matter don't write or don't accept the code you desire, it's never going to be in-tree.
        soganess 2y ago
        I am a little confused about what is happening now. What Mao did was wrong. Holding the gun or being in charge of those who do is a distinction without a difference. Law by violence is wrong. Whether it is Xi, Mao, or the mob, it's wrong. The same holds true for America's rise to power. My argument is normative; it is not a historical narrative. Just because he did it "effectively" (by a measure of effectiveness I would take issue with) doesn't make it less wrong. If you want to stop the lion's share of crime, just imprison every young person aged 16–26 and release them on their 27th birthday. Effective beyond belief, crime will decrease in a way never before seen. It is still really wrong. Effectiveness is not a substitute for morality. Asking people to join the police, as it is currently constituted, is asking people to go against their morality. It is that simple. It doesn't matter if you believe a police system can exist in its current form "done right", or if you think it needs restructuring, or if you think it doesn't need to exist. Right now it sucks, and a 10% increase in cops with some subtlety in their actions isn't fixing it. People are in a big dialogue right now about how using social media is ruining people... what do you think going against your basic moral precepts will do to someone? You are not providing a clear avenue for change but still asking for a lot out of folks and wondering why they won't take part. Regarding Linux development, having some hierarchy is not a negation of group action. Furthermore, analogizing a maintainer being pissy about a Rust PR and the police force killing people might as well be the platonic ideal of a false equivalence. (The canonical and contemporaneous translation is (I _think_ from Edgar Snow): "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.")
- corimaith 2y ago
  You either change the world, or the world changes you. Those ideals didn't emerge out of nowhere with no rivals either, whether it was Conservatism, Communism or Fascism, Liberals very much did play dirty to win in the end. Perhaps you might call them hypocrites as such, and they might agree with you on that, but the outcomes are different. Freedom entails Responsibility, so don't get too childish in taking the rights you enjoy today for granted.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
> help uphold those values sorry, but the way to uphold those values is by 1) setting an example of a prosperous nation that is a good example of those values (something we're failing at miserably right now, unfortunately), and 2) creating incentives and motivating other countries to adopt those same values the absolutely worst way to uphold those values is through military force, which is what Palantir is all about. So I quite strongly disagree with Karp. (That being said, I do agree with the point that much talent and money is wasted on frivolous social entertainment instead of things that could truly benefit humanity.)
- corimaith 2y ago
  >sorry, but the way to uphold those values is by 1) setting an example of a prosperous nation that is a good example of those values (something we're failing at miserably right now, unfortunately), and 2) creating incentives and motivating other countries to adopt those same values How do you know this? America is far more despondent today than during the Cold War where they were willing to play those dirty tricks in force and propaganda to win, and they did. Current America's predicaments are precisely tracked down to their risk aversion to force that Russia, China and Iran are quite apt to capitalize on. The dove policy is arguably an even greater failure than the neocons. Even domestically, foreigners aren't laughing at Texas or the Deep South, they're laughing at progressive cities like San Francisco or Portland or LA that are the bastions of this no-force mentality you are speaking about.
archagon 2y ago
"Palantir CEO Alex Karp Jokes About Drone-Striking Rivals, Suggests Sending Protesters To North Korea At Capitol Hill Forum" (https://www.benzinga.com/news/24/05/38571263/palantir-ceo-alex-karp-jokes-about-drone-striking-rivals-suggests-sending-protesters-to-north-korea https://www.benzinga.com/news/24/05/38571263/palantir-ceo-al...) "Palantir CEO signs off year with nod to West's 'organised violence'" (https://www.thestack.technology/palantir-ceo-signs-off-year-with-nod-to-wests-organised-violence https://www.thestack.technology/palantir-ceo-signs-off-year-...) Karp cares fuck all about the things that make America actually great. I do not consent to living in his AI-surveilled, Slaughterbot-policed[1] hellscape version of America. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1hexvat/slaughterbots_is_here_palantir_is_airing_tv_ads/ https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1hexvat/slaugh...

Ozzie_osman 2y ago

> America has ideals and values that are worth fighting for, such as free speech, civil rights, (mostly) free markets, and so on. "I say the whole world must learn of our peaceful ways... by force!"

inemesitaffia 2y ago
Always fascinating that the people with anti-police politics never go into policing (even in areas that strongly share their political leanings) but expect different outcomes magically
- soganess 2y ago
  magically = "group action driven by a shared understanding of the common good. Buttressed by clear through-line that connects what each individual has to give up in terms of time/freedom/autonomy to the benefit of themselves and their community." It's always fascinating when folks see the stick as the only vehicle for change. But hey, there is a weird honesty to it. The only way we can keep people 'in line' when their lot in life is all lemons ...is naked force.
  - inemesitaffia 2y ago
    Mao: Power and the Gun.
    - soganess 2y ago
      Misquoting (in translation) the sophomoric military machinations of a person who never served but who's polices managed to kill millions isn't going to curry favor here. Group action with clear purpose is compatible with capital. In fact, we have a plurality of names for it; businesses, clubs, linux kernel development...
      - inemesitaffia 2y ago
        Misquoting my arse. Mao didn't need to hold a gun if he could control those with it. The currently crumbling pax Americana wasn't held by just capital and group action. You think Xi would be fine if the people in his country controlling the guns decided they want someone else? I didn't just talk about the stick though. When you promote the idea that all cops are bastards, and make sure people who will police the way you want don't go into policing, you'll get bastards. Doesn't matter if your community votes DSA, Green or Communist. If you don't have people that align with your ideology in areas that matter or aren't incentivised to you won't get the changes you desire. How will you get change when the people who want the changes refuse to work or have their people in the organizations that they want change? And even disincentivize it. Barring the use of force it's the functional elites, not the hoi polloi (that manage to have time for protests and such) that drive change. You can tell from the biography of pretty much every activist or philosopher you know. As for Linux, it takes people; individuals on the inside to drive change too. As anyone who follows development there will know. If the people that matter don't write or don't accept the code you desire, it's never going to be in-tree.
        soganess 2y ago
        I am a little confused about what is happening now. What Mao did was wrong. Holding the gun or being in charge of those who do is a distinction without a difference. Law by violence is wrong. Whether it is Xi, Mao, or the mob, it's wrong. The same holds true for America's rise to power. My argument is normative; it is not a historical narrative. Just because he did it "effectively" (by a measure of effectiveness I would take issue with) doesn't make it less wrong. If you want to stop the lion's share of crime, just imprison every young person aged 16–26 and release them on their 27th birthday. Effective beyond belief, crime will decrease in a way never before seen. It is still really wrong. Effectiveness is not a substitute for morality. Asking people to join the police, as it is currently constituted, is asking people to go against their morality. It is that simple. It doesn't matter if you believe a police system can exist in its current form "done right", or if you think it needs restructuring, or if you think it doesn't need to exist. Right now it sucks, and a 10% increase in cops with some subtlety in their actions isn't fixing it. People are in a big dialogue right now about how using social media is ruining people... what do you think going against your basic moral precepts will do to someone? You are not providing a clear avenue for change but still asking for a lot out of folks and wondering why they won't take part. Regarding Linux development, having some hierarchy is not a negation of group action. Furthermore, analogizing a maintainer being pissy about a Rust PR and the police force killing people might as well be the platonic ideal of a false equivalence. (The canonical and contemporaneous translation is (I _think_ from Edgar Snow): "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.")
corimaith 2y ago
You either change the world, or the world changes you. Those ideals didn't emerge out of nowhere with no rivals either, whether it was Conservatism, Communism or Fascism, Liberals very much did play dirty to win in the end. Perhaps you might call them hypocrites as such, and they might agree with you on that, but the outcomes are different. Freedom entails Responsibility, so don't get too childish in taking the rights you enjoy today for granted.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

> help uphold those values sorry, but the way to uphold those values is by 1) setting an example of a prosperous nation that is a good example of those values (something we're failing at miserably right now, unfortunately), and 2) creating incentives and motivating other countries to adopt those same values the absolutely worst way to uphold those values is through military force, which is what Palantir is all about. So I quite strongly disagree with Karp. (That being said, I do agree with the point that much talent and money is wasted on frivolous social entertainment instead of things that could truly benefit humanity.)

corimaith 2y ago
>sorry, but the way to uphold those values is by 1) setting an example of a prosperous nation that is a good example of those values (something we're failing at miserably right now, unfortunately), and 2) creating incentives and motivating other countries to adopt those same values How do you know this? America is far more despondent today than during the Cold War where they were willing to play those dirty tricks in force and propaganda to win, and they did. Current America's predicaments are precisely tracked down to their risk aversion to force that Russia, China and Iran are quite apt to capitalize on. The dove policy is arguably an even greater failure than the neocons. Even domestically, foreigners aren't laughing at Texas or the Deep South, they're laughing at progressive cities like San Francisco or Portland or LA that are the bastions of this no-force mentality you are speaking about.

archagon 2y ago

"Palantir CEO Alex Karp Jokes About Drone-Striking Rivals, Suggests Sending Protesters To North Korea At Capitol Hill Forum" (https://www.benzinga.com/news/24/05/38571263/palantir-ceo-alex-karp-jokes-about-drone-striking-rivals-suggests-sending-protesters-to-north-korea https://www.benzinga.com/news/24/05/38571263/palantir-ceo-al...) "Palantir CEO signs off year with nod to West's 'organised violence'" (https://www.thestack.technology/palantir-ceo-signs-off-year-with-nod-to-wests-organised-violence https://www.thestack.technology/palantir-ceo-signs-off-year-...) Karp cares fuck all about the things that make America actually great. I do not consent to living in his AI-surveilled, Slaughterbot-policed[1] hellscape version of America. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1hexvat/slaughterbots_is_here_palantir_is_airing_tv_ads/ https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1hexvat/slaugh...