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I'm primarily responding with skepticism to JumpCriscross about humans minimizing "sentient suffering" — which would be measured by the aggregate of total suffe

I'm primarily responding with skepticism to JumpCriscross about humans minimizing "sentient suffering" — which would be measured by the aggregate of total suffering inflicted by all members of a species. The extremes contribute the most in the ledger of agonies, but I don't think they are the most relevant — rather I fault human nature for tending to produce extremes. Is it Vladimir Putin who is personally responsible for all the suffering inflicted by the Russian state, or can we say that the environment from which Putin emerged played a role? Thanks to their reasoning abilities, humans have enormous capability to inflict violence and suffering, which is not matched by a commensurate empathy which would dissuade violence.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
I think there is a tremendous amount of empathy, if one isn't blinded to it. For every person that dies a violent death, there there are thousands engaging positively with friends, family, loved ones. If you care about sums, you must also acknowledge positive within the Russian state as well? On a given day, it also has lovers meeting, mothers nursing children, friendships. Surely, humanity doesn't have enough empathy to dissuade violence, but that is an argument about purity, not aggregates. The typical person spends an exceedingly small amount of time engaged in violence, and this is a testament to both our empathy, intelligence, and the social systems we have built.
- rectang 2y ago
  All those Ukrainians basking in that tremendous Russian empathy… It only takes a moment for you or your loved ones to receive death or grievous injury, but not to worry because they’re “spending an exceedingly small amount of time engaged in violence”. Rape might be over in minutes! And besides, it only affects… how much of the population? Those who are most confident about human righteousness are the least qualified to minimize “sentient suffering”. It is often said that one’s foes “only understand violence”, and the essential truth in that assertion is that indirect empathy is utterly insufficient compared with direct, personal pain as a motivator for changing behavior.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    This is clearly a disagreement about weights. You don't seem to weigh empathy and joy very highly in comparison to violence. How much kind empathetic deeds do you think it takes to outweigh 10 minutes of violent murder? A hug? A romance? A lifetime of Love? One hundred lifetimes of kindness? Sometimes it helps to make the context personal? How much violence would you endure for a year of kindness and love?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - rectang 2y ago
      If Russians were sufficiently empathetic towards the suffering of Ukrainians, if they truly felt the pain of Ukrainians as keenly as if they had experienced it themselves, they wouldn't freaking invade. But since empathy is a weak force and it's human nature to not feel much about the suffering of outsiders, Russians are not dissuaded from their war of conquest. With regards to the weight of violence: Have you considered that "10 minutes of violent murder" may mean only 10 minutes of acute agony for the deceased but years of suffering for the deceased's surviving loved ones? The only possible answer to your thought experiment is "I don't need s1artibartfast sitting in judgment about whether my life is appropriately balanced between violence and happiness".
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        That is falling back to the purity tests and cynicism. To be clear, I'm not judging your life, but challenging your claim about the forces driving human behavior, and the aggregate vale of the species. I disagree with the idea that just because empathy doesn't prevent all violence, it is weak, or less meaningful. A bird can fly, but that doesn't mean gravity is weak. Violence is real, and important to understand, but Empathy and good intentions are real too, and a huge part of human psychology. I would argue they are a greater driver of the two.
        2y ago

s1artibartfast 2y ago

I think there is a tremendous amount of empathy, if one isn't blinded to it. For every person that dies a violent death, there there are thousands engaging positively with friends, family, loved ones. If you care about sums, you must also acknowledge positive within the Russian state as well? On a given day, it also has lovers meeting, mothers nursing children, friendships. Surely, humanity doesn't have enough empathy to dissuade violence, but that is an argument about purity, not aggregates. The typical person spends an exceedingly small amount of time engaged in violence, and this is a testament to both our empathy, intelligence, and the social systems we have built.

rectang 2y ago
All those Ukrainians basking in that tremendous Russian empathy… It only takes a moment for you or your loved ones to receive death or grievous injury, but not to worry because they’re “spending an exceedingly small amount of time engaged in violence”. Rape might be over in minutes! And besides, it only affects… how much of the population? Those who are most confident about human righteousness are the least qualified to minimize “sentient suffering”. It is often said that one’s foes “only understand violence”, and the essential truth in that assertion is that indirect empathy is utterly insufficient compared with direct, personal pain as a motivator for changing behavior.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  This is clearly a disagreement about weights. You don't seem to weigh empathy and joy very highly in comparison to violence. How much kind empathetic deeds do you think it takes to outweigh 10 minutes of violent murder? A hug? A romance? A lifetime of Love? One hundred lifetimes of kindness? Sometimes it helps to make the context personal? How much violence would you endure for a year of kindness and love?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - rectang 2y ago
    If Russians were sufficiently empathetic towards the suffering of Ukrainians, if they truly felt the pain of Ukrainians as keenly as if they had experienced it themselves, they wouldn't freaking invade. But since empathy is a weak force and it's human nature to not feel much about the suffering of outsiders, Russians are not dissuaded from their war of conquest. With regards to the weight of violence: Have you considered that "10 minutes of violent murder" may mean only 10 minutes of acute agony for the deceased but years of suffering for the deceased's surviving loved ones? The only possible answer to your thought experiment is "I don't need s1artibartfast sitting in judgment about whether my life is appropriately balanced between violence and happiness".
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      That is falling back to the purity tests and cynicism. To be clear, I'm not judging your life, but challenging your claim about the forces driving human behavior, and the aggregate vale of the species. I disagree with the idea that just because empathy doesn't prevent all violence, it is weak, or less meaningful. A bird can fly, but that doesn't mean gravity is weak. Violence is real, and important to understand, but Empathy and good intentions are real too, and a huge part of human psychology. I would argue they are a greater driver of the two.
      - 2y ago