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Much religion depends on magical thinking and/or blind appeals to authority. IME it facilitates bad behavior that's less likely to be tolerated by more rational

Much religion depends on magical thinking and/or blind appeals to authority. IME it facilitates bad behavior that's less likely to be tolerated by more rational belief systems.

anon291 2y ago
The arc of history simply does not show that. We can point to the various issues in communist states (not criticizing communism but all the communist states are undoubtedly atheist).
- fsckboy 2y ago
  not criticizing communism? pray tell, what species are you considering? - E O Wilson
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  Was it the absence of religion that created issues in communist states? Or perhaps authoritarianism, hero worship, overly centralized planning, low trust culture, or some other combination of factors at play? History's arc is much longer than communism, and religion is tied to some pretty horrific events.
  - anon291 2y ago
    Given that some of the hatred was targeting specifically religious people (for example, the CCP bans religious people from their ranks), then I think it's safe to say that it is driven by a dislike of religion You can agree with their take on religion or not, but their motivation remains the same.
throwanem 2y ago
What beyond self-contradiction is "rational belief?"
starspangled 2y ago
The worldview of many atheists I know seems to depend on magical thinking, holding of contradictory beliefs, and blind appeal to authority when it comes to the government. I don't think there is clear cause and effect when it comes to religion and irrational behavior.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  Certainly exceptions exist to every rule or trend. Having visited over a hundred churches (for thousands of services), they are the only place I've consistently seen people teach and accept things that what everyone can plainly see is false. Children are taught that fallacies are better than critical thinking, wherever it serves their belief system.
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    This is a surprising thing to read, as that’s a lot of services. Are you religious? Or were you once? I’ve visited many, many churches, likely hundreds. I love their architecture. I have never been to a service and am an atheist.
- psychoslave 2y ago
  People often easily conflat religion, theology and theocracy. But an atheist dictator that would put death sentence for anyone that engages in a religion would obviously not be more ethical than some religious zealtoth doing the same for atheism. I'm not aware of any politically powerful atheist in history that went this path. I mean, most likely Stalin was atheist, but I doubt it ever was a matter to send people to gulag. Atheism is just rare as an ontological belief, so it makes sense most faith intolerance happened between religious dévots. Note that strictly speaking, atheism is just rejecting the existence of any god. That doesn't necessarily make magic out of the equation. Though certainly atheism is generally associated to the rejection of any superstitious belief. But just believing that ZFC make a sound mathematical foundation doesn't make you an advanced flawless logician. People stay mere humans, whatever they believe might be the most relevant foundation to use their more or less weak reasoning ability.
graemep 2y ago
The big genocides and mass murders of the twentieth century were motivated by non-religious (the holocaust) or atheist (in the Soviet union, China, and Cambodia) ideologies.. Even historically religious motives for "bad behaviours" were rare.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  Were those genocides really motivated by of a lack of religion or other factors like racism and authoritarianism? > Even historically religious motives for "bad behaviours" were rare. Doubt. Still, even if that's accurate, my point was that raising people to be easily manipulated sheep doesn't produce a robust society. It just makes them easier to exploit. MLMs are common in predominantly Mormon communities for a reason.
  - anon291 2y ago
    I mean... We constantly hear that European colonization was due to Christianity and yet that cannot account for the treatment of the Syriac Christians of Kerala by the European colonists supposedly driven by Christianity. This is the heart of the matter: any ill by an atheist is determined to be caused by something other than atheism. Meanwhile any motivation of an evil doer who professes a religion is pinned on that religion.
    - defrost 2y ago
      > I mean... We constantly hear that European colonization was due to Christianity .. Who is "we" and why do they hear that? Eg: Australia was colonised to take land possession ahead of the Dutch and the French, for finnancial gain, and to utilise the prisoners piling up in hulks on the river flats once the thirteen colonies in North America stopped taking them. The thirteen US colonies were largely established as hard nosed business ventures with substantial private investments that looked for an eventual return. The South and Central American colonies were pretty much all established to support plantations for sugar and other goods. In these examples religion came along for the ride and provided a carrotof comfort in contrast to the sticks and guns of the military who also rode in.

Much religion depends on magical thinking and/or blind appeals to authority. IME it facilitates bad behavior that's less likely to be tolerated by more rational belief systems.

anon291 2y ago

The arc of history simply does not show that. We can point to the various issues in communist states (not criticizing communism but all the communist states are undoubtedly atheist).

fsckboy 2y ago
not criticizing communism? pray tell, what species are you considering? - E O Wilson
paulryanrogers 2y ago
Was it the absence of religion that created issues in communist states? Or perhaps authoritarianism, hero worship, overly centralized planning, low trust culture, or some other combination of factors at play? History's arc is much longer than communism, and religion is tied to some pretty horrific events.
- anon291 2y ago
  Given that some of the hatred was targeting specifically religious people (for example, the CCP bans religious people from their ranks), then I think it's safe to say that it is driven by a dislike of religion You can agree with their take on religion or not, but their motivation remains the same.

throwanem 2y ago

What beyond self-contradiction is "rational belief?"

starspangled 2y ago

The worldview of many atheists I know seems to depend on magical thinking, holding of contradictory beliefs, and blind appeal to authority when it comes to the government. I don't think there is clear cause and effect when it comes to religion and irrational behavior.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
Certainly exceptions exist to every rule or trend. Having visited over a hundred churches (for thousands of services), they are the only place I've consistently seen people teach and accept things that what everyone can plainly see is false. Children are taught that fallacies are better than critical thinking, wherever it serves their belief system.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  This is a surprising thing to read, as that’s a lot of services. Are you religious? Or were you once? I’ve visited many, many churches, likely hundreds. I love their architecture. I have never been to a service and am an atheist.
psychoslave 2y ago
People often easily conflat religion, theology and theocracy. But an atheist dictator that would put death sentence for anyone that engages in a religion would obviously not be more ethical than some religious zealtoth doing the same for atheism. I'm not aware of any politically powerful atheist in history that went this path. I mean, most likely Stalin was atheist, but I doubt it ever was a matter to send people to gulag. Atheism is just rare as an ontological belief, so it makes sense most faith intolerance happened between religious dévots. Note that strictly speaking, atheism is just rejecting the existence of any god. That doesn't necessarily make magic out of the equation. Though certainly atheism is generally associated to the rejection of any superstitious belief. But just believing that ZFC make a sound mathematical foundation doesn't make you an advanced flawless logician. People stay mere humans, whatever they believe might be the most relevant foundation to use their more or less weak reasoning ability.

graemep 2y ago

The big genocides and mass murders of the twentieth century were motivated by non-religious (the holocaust) or atheist (in the Soviet union, China, and Cambodia) ideologies.. Even historically religious motives for "bad behaviours" were rare.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
Were those genocides really motivated by of a lack of religion or other factors like racism and authoritarianism? > Even historically religious motives for "bad behaviours" were rare. Doubt. Still, even if that's accurate, my point was that raising people to be easily manipulated sheep doesn't produce a robust society. It just makes them easier to exploit. MLMs are common in predominantly Mormon communities for a reason.
- anon291 2y ago
  I mean... We constantly hear that European colonization was due to Christianity and yet that cannot account for the treatment of the Syriac Christians of Kerala by the European colonists supposedly driven by Christianity. This is the heart of the matter: any ill by an atheist is determined to be caused by something other than atheism. Meanwhile any motivation of an evil doer who professes a religion is pinned on that religion.
  - defrost 2y ago
    > I mean... We constantly hear that European colonization was due to Christianity .. Who is "we" and why do they hear that? Eg: Australia was colonised to take land possession ahead of the Dutch and the French, for finnancial gain, and to utilise the prisoners piling up in hulks on the river flats once the thirteen colonies in North America stopped taking them. The thirteen US colonies were largely established as hard nosed business ventures with substantial private investments that looked for an eventual return. The South and Central American colonies were pretty much all established to support plantations for sugar and other goods. In these examples religion came along for the ride and provided a carrotof comfort in contrast to the sticks and guns of the military who also rode in.