3 ms·

The problem with the amyloid hypothesis is most likely not that it is wrong, but that it is incomplete, and I would say that is the problem with this test as we

The problem with the amyloid hypothesis is most likely not that it is wrong, but that it is incomplete, and I would say that is the problem with this test as well. I work in neurotech/sleeptech, and AD researchers are using (or want to use) slow-wave enhancement to prevent and possibly manage AD. However, the test for AD is still a psychological tests along with neuroimaging to look for tau tangles and amyloid plaque build up. It has been discussed that we may be looking at multiple different diseases which have similar symptoms and without completely understanding the disease itself, we are categorizing them as AD, though they may have different pathways. Though we can't ignore the challenges to the amyloid hypothesis, we also shouldn't completely throw it out. Most of the experts I've spoken with still believe it is the best hypothesis we have, but that we also should not ignore other possibilities.

tim333 2y ago
It surprises me that some obvious clues to treatment are passed over as I guess they don't fit the politics? Like >A team of researchers in Jerusalem, he says, decided to look at patients who survived bladder cancer and compare dementia prevalence among patients treated with BCG and those who weren’t. “Do they differ in the rate at which they get Alzheimer’s disease?” The answer is yes – the BCG group appeared to get 75% protection against Alzheimer’s. A number of studies have now found varying levels of protection from BCG, with an average, according to one meta‑analysis, of 45%. There's a lot of evidence a lot of it is set off by infectious microbes which can be treated in the usual way. (From https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/01/the-brain-microbiome-could-understanding-it-help-prevent-dementia?lid=unhn64q4wvgg https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/01/the-bra...) The 'politics' puzzles me. Maybe the head of department got fame for hypothesis A and feels his power or money is threatened by hypothesis B? It's not what science should be about. (There was an entertaining angry Sabine Hossenfelder youtube a few minutes ago on the corruption of science just wasting money, but really letting people die of Alzheimer's is worse. https://youtu.be/shFUDPqVmTg https://youtu.be/shFUDPqVmTg)
- manmal 2y ago
  There‘s also a weird relation with the oral microbiome. Probably not that surprising, seeing how much translocation is actually happening between our microbiomes. Just an n=1 ofc, but someone in my family got all their remaining teeth pulled and replaced with implants, and afterwards, within 3 years went from asymptomatic to dead from AD. The progression was mind boggling. I‘ve wondered for a long time whether the oral work was related to this - the surgery caused so much damage that it certainly exceeded capacity to heal, opening the doors wide for any pathogens.
  - pedalpete 2y ago
    I agree to a point, but you also have to consider, why did they have to get their "remaining teeth pulled"? It is entirely likely the AD was present before the teeth were removed. I had an uncle with AD, and he hid it VERY well for quite a few years. We would have thought he was asymptomatic, but we suspect it was just that we didn't know.
    - manmal 2y ago
      Yes that may well be.
  - Madmallard 2y ago
    How old were they when this happened?
    - manmal 2y ago
      About 60
  - tim333 2y ago
    I guess it only takes one bad pathogen to get in and it's hard to know what happened without scientific testing. The Guardian article I linked in another comment has for one guy "sample of his cerebrospinal fluid was taken and revealed a fungal infection..." which it shows it's possible at least to some extent to test for this kind of stuff. (article https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/01/the-brain-microbiome-could-understanding-it-help-prevent-dementia?lid=unhn64q4wvgg https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/01/the-bra...) It seems a bit of an under explored area. I suspected something like that with my dad who had a long deterioration of nerves/mind but current medics don't seem to regard it as a thing to do. It's more get your affairs together before the care home/death. While the guy in the Guardian article guesses that likely more than 50% of dementias are treatable infections.
giantg2 2y ago
"The problem with the amyloid hypothesis is most likely not that it is wrong, but that it is incomplete," If the hypothesis is that amalyoid causes AD, then I think we've disproved that (even with your statement that it's incomplete). If I remember correctly, there are individuals who have amalyoid without developing AD, or who have had their amalyoid levels reduced without improvement. At this point, it seems that amalyoid is more of a symptom than a cause. But you are correct that the data is dirty - many studies have not tested for amalyoid itself, instead relying on clinical diagnosis, and subsequent studies are finding at 25% of mild to moderate AD may be other forms of neural degeneration. So many of the AD studies out there focusing on amalyoid reduction are garbage because many of them happened before being able to use imaging to test amalyoid levels.
- pedalpete 2y ago
  This is what I mean by "we are likely looking at different diseases". Something that would be diagnosed as AD, but without amyloid levels (if it is decided that this the correct marker to look at). It's as if we were to look at diabetes, and then not recognize there are (at least) two types of diabetes, with VERY different causes, and recommended treatments.
alfiedotwtf 2y ago
Damn! I know nothing about AD and while reading these comments you mentioned sleep tech. I didn’t understand the connection or what amyloid hypothesis even was, so looked it up. As someone who’s on < 4 hours of sleep a day with at least one day for 36 hours straight awake a week, umm… should I be worried?
- lossolo 2y ago
  Yes, you should be very worried. Imagine accumulating trash in your house—you take some out, but you never throw away all of it. Each time, some remains. Now, imagine what happens after a few decades. In this example, the house represents your brain.
  - alfiedotwtf 2y ago
    OK thanks for that, I’ll have to do more reading

tim333 2y ago

It surprises me that some obvious clues to treatment are passed over as I guess they don't fit the politics? Like >A team of researchers in Jerusalem, he says, decided to look at patients who survived bladder cancer and compare dementia prevalence among patients treated with BCG and those who weren’t. “Do they differ in the rate at which they get Alzheimer’s disease?” The answer is yes – the BCG group appeared to get 75% protection against Alzheimer’s. A number of studies have now found varying levels of protection from BCG, with an average, according to one meta‑analysis, of 45%. There's a lot of evidence a lot of it is set off by infectious microbes which can be treated in the usual way. (From https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/01/the-brain-microbiome-could-understanding-it-help-prevent-dementia?lid=unhn64q4wvgg https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/01/the-bra...) The 'politics' puzzles me. Maybe the head of department got fame for hypothesis A and feels his power or money is threatened by hypothesis B? It's not what science should be about. (There was an entertaining angry Sabine Hossenfelder youtube a few minutes ago on the corruption of science just wasting money, but really letting people die of Alzheimer's is worse. https://youtu.be/shFUDPqVmTg https://youtu.be/shFUDPqVmTg)

manmal 2y ago
There‘s also a weird relation with the oral microbiome. Probably not that surprising, seeing how much translocation is actually happening between our microbiomes. Just an n=1 ofc, but someone in my family got all their remaining teeth pulled and replaced with implants, and afterwards, within 3 years went from asymptomatic to dead from AD. The progression was mind boggling. I‘ve wondered for a long time whether the oral work was related to this - the surgery caused so much damage that it certainly exceeded capacity to heal, opening the doors wide for any pathogens.
- pedalpete 2y ago
  I agree to a point, but you also have to consider, why did they have to get their "remaining teeth pulled"? It is entirely likely the AD was present before the teeth were removed. I had an uncle with AD, and he hid it VERY well for quite a few years. We would have thought he was asymptomatic, but we suspect it was just that we didn't know.
  - manmal 2y ago
    Yes that may well be.
- Madmallard 2y ago
  How old were they when this happened?
  - manmal 2y ago
    About 60
- tim333 2y ago
  I guess it only takes one bad pathogen to get in and it's hard to know what happened without scientific testing. The Guardian article I linked in another comment has for one guy "sample of his cerebrospinal fluid was taken and revealed a fungal infection..." which it shows it's possible at least to some extent to test for this kind of stuff. (article https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/01/the-brain-microbiome-could-understanding-it-help-prevent-dementia?lid=unhn64q4wvgg https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/01/the-bra...) It seems a bit of an under explored area. I suspected something like that with my dad who had a long deterioration of nerves/mind but current medics don't seem to regard it as a thing to do. It's more get your affairs together before the care home/death. While the guy in the Guardian article guesses that likely more than 50% of dementias are treatable infections.

giantg2 2y ago

"The problem with the amyloid hypothesis is most likely not that it is wrong, but that it is incomplete," If the hypothesis is that amalyoid causes AD, then I think we've disproved that (even with your statement that it's incomplete). If I remember correctly, there are individuals who have amalyoid without developing AD, or who have had their amalyoid levels reduced without improvement. At this point, it seems that amalyoid is more of a symptom than a cause. But you are correct that the data is dirty - many studies have not tested for amalyoid itself, instead relying on clinical diagnosis, and subsequent studies are finding at 25% of mild to moderate AD may be other forms of neural degeneration. So many of the AD studies out there focusing on amalyoid reduction are garbage because many of them happened before being able to use imaging to test amalyoid levels.

pedalpete 2y ago
This is what I mean by "we are likely looking at different diseases". Something that would be diagnosed as AD, but without amyloid levels (if it is decided that this the correct marker to look at). It's as if we were to look at diabetes, and then not recognize there are (at least) two types of diabetes, with VERY different causes, and recommended treatments.

alfiedotwtf 2y ago

Damn! I know nothing about AD and while reading these comments you mentioned sleep tech. I didn’t understand the connection or what amyloid hypothesis even was, so looked it up. As someone who’s on < 4 hours of sleep a day with at least one day for 36 hours straight awake a week, umm… should I be worried?

lossolo 2y ago
Yes, you should be very worried. Imagine accumulating trash in your house—you take some out, but you never throw away all of it. Each time, some remains. Now, imagine what happens after a few decades. In this example, the house represents your brain.
- alfiedotwtf 2y ago
  OK thanks for that, I’ll have to do more reading