9 ms·

So much of our life is consumed by work. Seeing your lifespan laid bare like this, there's a perverse instinct to optimize what remains. Have to be more product

So much of our life is consumed by work. Seeing your lifespan laid bare like this, there's a perverse instinct to optimize what remains. Have to be more productive, more efficient. But it's a bit like seeing you're bleeding out and deciding to optimize your blood donation schedule, isn't it?

layer8 2y ago
Finding work that gives one enjoyment and purpose should be an important priority.
- markus_zhang 2y ago
  Only the luckiest guys get both at the same time.
- BizarreByte 2y ago
  That's completely unrealistic though. If you have a job that allows you to support yourself and doesn't make you want to veer into oncoming traffic daily that's about as good as it gets for the vast majority of people. There's so many reasons why purpose should be found outside of work.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  Like others replying to this comment, I disagree because there is much work that needs to be done which cannot truly provide purpose to most people. However ... I do believe that any job should provide dignity and "purpose" in the narrower sense of something the person doing it believes needs to be done. Any job done full time (however a culture defines that) should also make a reasonable lower middle class life possible.
  - layer8 2y ago
    I think you mean that there are a lot of jobs that while serving a good purpose, aren’t necessarily enjoyed by many. I’m not sure how much that has to be the case. In any case, we should strive to maximize the jobs that are both sufficiently enjoyable and purposeful. The problem I see today is that there is a lot of “bullshit” work being done that doesn’t really serve any good purpose, or even makes things worse in the world, and not enough people rejecting that state of affairs. I agree about dignity and compensation.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
      There's a difference between personal purpose and community purpose. I don't expect a city trash collector to consider their work to be their life's purpose, even if they do experience the work as having some purpose/value to the community. The BS jobs hypothesis, popularized by David Graeber, is IMO quite flawed. It's a way to look at the world without having to get your mind dirty understanding how stuff actually works. Sometimes that can be a good stepping stone to asking "just why are we doing it this way?". However, the broader observation that Graeber makes (essentially: "everybody, especially the people doing them, know it is bullshit") points instead to the disconnect people experience between the work being done by <their organization> and the actual stuff that they do. No doubt there are some true BS jobs, but I think far less of them than is often supposed. You and/or the person doing them may not see why they are there (and that is a problem), but that doesn't make them BS.
- haswell 2y ago
  As I’ve gotten older, I’ve shifted to: learning how to find enjoyment and purpose from whatever situation you find yourself in should be an important priority. Finding work that is inherently enjoyable and purposeful to you is still great if you can find it. But that’s not always possible, and I’ve been increasingly interested in the ideas in books like “Flow”, which details the ways people in all manner of circumstances find purpose/enjoyment from the work in front of them.
nyokodo 2y ago
> Have to be more productive, more efficient Most people on their deathbed would counsel you to focus on relationships rather than productivity.
- ge96 2y ago
  I'd like my KPI metrics etched on my gravestone
  - kingo55 2y ago
    It's me, your manager, quit slacking on Hacker News and get back to work. /s
    - ge96 2y ago
      It's Saturday
      - cbsks 2y ago
        Not a team player, I see. This will be reflected in your next performance review.
  - shepherdjerred 2y ago
    I have delivered value, but at what cost? https://youtu.be/DYvhC_RdIwQ https://youtu.be/DYvhC_RdIwQ
    - ge96 2y ago
      DevOps is a meaningful term. You understand DevOps because you use it everyday.
  - beau_g 2y ago
    If you distill every metric in your life and put it in a Tableau dashboard, the load time would be so long that you could achieve immortality
999900000999 2y ago
My biggest failure has been not getting an extreme income ( 300k TC a year +) before 30. I had planned to retire by 40 and be done with this work nonsense. Now I'm in my mid 30s and that doesn't seem possible. However I will say if you have a highly variable income ( one year you make 100$ an hour, the next year you have no work), you should max out your 401k during the good times. Having 30k in retirement funds that you'll get smacked for drawing on is better than nothing. Too late now. I'm comfortable, but I think the era of 300k TC is done.
- hnthrowaway0315 2y ago
  Yup. My advice to young people is -- if you can't figure out what to do in life, make more $$. With enough $$ you will have a world of time to ponder what to do. I also regret that I gave up a FAANG level opportunity because my faily doesn't want me to go to another city. I would hit well over 200K TC by now -- a very comfortable salary in Canada.
  - karparov 2y ago
    Quite the irony that the thread started with reminiscing about life and purpose and needing time and valuing relationships and you guys go into the "need to make more money" spiel. Here comes a secret: It will never be enough for you. It's not the money that counts. It's the ratio of income versus expenses, if anything. And if you grow one and don't stop the other one from growing in unison, then you have gained nothing. I know lots of people with 5x the income of me, but their expenses and lifestyle overcompensate, so they are much deeper into the hamster wheel than me. I could retire any day (late 30s). I currently don't do it cause my work is fun and I like the people, and the more I keep going the higher my expenses could become if needed. But the finances don't keep me in my job. And if anything comes along that looks sustainably more fun I will quit in a heartbeat.
    - markus_zhang 2y ago
      No. I already figured out my expenses, a couple of millions would be well enough. I'll quit job once I have one million.
hnthrowaway0315 2y ago
Exactly. I have thought about it for a while, I think I have to get rid of work or family to be substantially happier. Apparently getting rid of family is morally wrong, so the only option is to get rid of work, somehow, anyhow. I fully understand why people buy lottery tickets. Hope beats probability on every single instance. I, a Master of Statistics graduates, buy them too.
- theoreticalmal 2y ago
  Is morality really the major thing standing between you and “getting rid of your family”?
  - hnthrowaway0315 2y ago
    Maybe, or maybe not. Now that I think about it, it's difficult to say. But let's say I would rather get rid of work than family, and I don't want to get rid of both. BTW changing job is still a lot easier than changing family :)
- kenjackson 2y ago
  What’s going on with your family? I can’t imagine much joy without mine.
  - steve_adams_86 2y ago
    Me too. I’d have more freedom to do certain things I love, but they’d quickly lose their appeal and I’d have no one to share any of it with. My family are literally the only people who give half a shit about me. Life would be quiet and hollow without them.
  - hnthrowaway0315 2y ago
    I guess I'm just not a family person. I don't have too much to complain about my family but I don't (net) gain much. Of course I'm as responsible as your usual parents on the street so I don't want to get rid of my family.
- 2y ago
steve_adams_86 2y ago
The older I get the more I realize that the most effective and productive things I can do are not at all what seem to be productive or effective on the surface. One of the most mentally and physically crippling things I’ve ever done was work too hard, for too long. I worked and earned more money than I thought I ever could but… All I truly got out of it was a lesson. To never do it again. I would have earned enough but also enjoyed my life had I just calmed down a bit. I’m sure you know as well as I do, if not better. It seemed worth noting though.
- codazoda 2y ago
  Did you ever start that non-tech business?
  - steve_adams_86 2y ago
    Yes! It’s slow going. I grow and sell plant tissue cultures. Sometimes I get fairly large orders (hundreds of units), but usually I sell a few or a dozen at a time to hobbyists who are into aquaria, terraria, or they want stock to start cultures on their own more easily. I also grow and sell some other stuff, but that’s the bulk of it. I got started on some discord channels with other hobbyists, but I’m in the process of creating a store front that’ll hopefully boost revenue a bit. I’ll likely need to learn a bunch of boring stuff like marketing to actually get traffic to it, but we’ll see. It’s at an awkward stage where I need to devote more time to it in order to allow it to grow more, but I’ve also got a full time job, kids, a wife, etc. But I really enjoy it. I hope to make the leap to doing it full time eventually, but that would be a while off still. Do you have non-tech business ideas or plans?
    - Antipodes456 2y ago
      Us non-techies dream of tech businesses, hehe. Not having to deal with ecommerce inventory sounds dreamy Edit - typo
      - steve_adams_86 2y ago
svilen_dobrev 2y ago
There's one pie-chart of average person's life.. and only 9 years are left free out of-78 . - how-u-spend-it is up to you.. https://www.visualistan.com/2015/02/what-do-7-billion-people-do-infographic.html https://www.visualistan.com/2015/02/what-do-7-billion-people...
- ydant 2y ago
  Interesting perspective. Though, I'd argue it should be 18 years free by their math. They lump a subset of leisure activities into another category as if those are beyond your easy control. Commuting, working, grooming, etc - sure, you could optimize those, but it's harder to deviate from the norm. But TV/video games? Doesn't seem like the same discussion.
jll29 2y ago
In this Lex Fiedman video, they talk about how life is short, and a visualization as a spreadsheet is shown that makes one very concerned: Pieter Levels: Programming, Viral AI Startups, and Digital Nomad Life | Lex Fridman Podcast #440 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg [ironically, the podcast is very long - over 3 hours - speaking of not wasting time, but after initial annoyance I'm glad I watched it all.] The positive insight that can come out of that is use every week and don't waste it, and and if you can, move your long-term dreams closer to the here and now. I made a version of that spreadsheet for "the rest of my life" to hand it into my office as a reminder. (Even if I will live until 90, it fits my laptop screen without scrolling...)
- dostick 2y ago
  Should everyone make it? On one hand it’s awareness, on another- at cause endless anxiety that you now visualised how little it is and still can’t do anything..
- dxuh 2y ago
  Where can I find the visualization? Skipping through I could not find it and I am not sold on it enough to spend almost 4 hours on this.
- etoulas 2y ago
  Do you mind pointing out the Moment when they show this?
interludead 2y ago
We spend so much time optimizing for productivity that we sometimes miss the bigger picture: the quality of life itself, not just the quantity of tasks we can check off
harryquach 2y ago
This is why I have interest in the FIRE movement. Our lives are short and fleeting. If there is even a small chance I can become financially independent before traditional retirement age, I am going to optimize for that.

layer8 2y ago

Finding work that gives one enjoyment and purpose should be an important priority.

markus_zhang 2y ago
Only the luckiest guys get both at the same time.
BizarreByte 2y ago
That's completely unrealistic though. If you have a job that allows you to support yourself and doesn't make you want to veer into oncoming traffic daily that's about as good as it gets for the vast majority of people. There's so many reasons why purpose should be found outside of work.
PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
Like others replying to this comment, I disagree because there is much work that needs to be done which cannot truly provide purpose to most people. However ... I do believe that any job should provide dignity and "purpose" in the narrower sense of something the person doing it believes needs to be done. Any job done full time (however a culture defines that) should also make a reasonable lower middle class life possible.
- layer8 2y ago
  I think you mean that there are a lot of jobs that while serving a good purpose, aren’t necessarily enjoyed by many. I’m not sure how much that has to be the case. In any case, we should strive to maximize the jobs that are both sufficiently enjoyable and purposeful. The problem I see today is that there is a lot of “bullshit” work being done that doesn’t really serve any good purpose, or even makes things worse in the world, and not enough people rejecting that state of affairs. I agree about dignity and compensation.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    There's a difference between personal purpose and community purpose. I don't expect a city trash collector to consider their work to be their life's purpose, even if they do experience the work as having some purpose/value to the community. The BS jobs hypothesis, popularized by David Graeber, is IMO quite flawed. It's a way to look at the world without having to get your mind dirty understanding how stuff actually works. Sometimes that can be a good stepping stone to asking "just why are we doing it this way?". However, the broader observation that Graeber makes (essentially: "everybody, especially the people doing them, know it is bullshit") points instead to the disconnect people experience between the work being done by <their organization> and the actual stuff that they do. No doubt there are some true BS jobs, but I think far less of them than is often supposed. You and/or the person doing them may not see why they are there (and that is a problem), but that doesn't make them BS.
haswell 2y ago
As I’ve gotten older, I’ve shifted to: learning how to find enjoyment and purpose from whatever situation you find yourself in should be an important priority. Finding work that is inherently enjoyable and purposeful to you is still great if you can find it. But that’s not always possible, and I’ve been increasingly interested in the ideas in books like “Flow”, which details the ways people in all manner of circumstances find purpose/enjoyment from the work in front of them.

nyokodo 2y ago

> Have to be more productive, more efficient Most people on their deathbed would counsel you to focus on relationships rather than productivity.

ge96 2y ago
I'd like my KPI metrics etched on my gravestone
- kingo55 2y ago
  It's me, your manager, quit slacking on Hacker News and get back to work. /s
  - ge96 2y ago
    It's Saturday
    - cbsks 2y ago
      Not a team player, I see. This will be reflected in your next performance review.
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  I have delivered value, but at what cost? https://youtu.be/DYvhC_RdIwQ https://youtu.be/DYvhC_RdIwQ
  - ge96 2y ago
    DevOps is a meaningful term. You understand DevOps because you use it everyday.
- beau_g 2y ago
  If you distill every metric in your life and put it in a Tableau dashboard, the load time would be so long that you could achieve immortality

999900000999 2y ago

My biggest failure has been not getting an extreme income ( 300k TC a year +) before 30. I had planned to retire by 40 and be done with this work nonsense. Now I'm in my mid 30s and that doesn't seem possible. However I will say if you have a highly variable income ( one year you make 100$ an hour, the next year you have no work), you should max out your 401k during the good times. Having 30k in retirement funds that you'll get smacked for drawing on is better than nothing. Too late now. I'm comfortable, but I think the era of 300k TC is done.

hnthrowaway0315 2y ago
Yup. My advice to young people is -- if you can't figure out what to do in life, make more $$. With enough $$ you will have a world of time to ponder what to do. I also regret that I gave up a FAANG level opportunity because my faily doesn't want me to go to another city. I would hit well over 200K TC by now -- a very comfortable salary in Canada.
- karparov 2y ago
  Quite the irony that the thread started with reminiscing about life and purpose and needing time and valuing relationships and you guys go into the "need to make more money" spiel. Here comes a secret: It will never be enough for you. It's not the money that counts. It's the ratio of income versus expenses, if anything. And if you grow one and don't stop the other one from growing in unison, then you have gained nothing. I know lots of people with 5x the income of me, but their expenses and lifestyle overcompensate, so they are much deeper into the hamster wheel than me. I could retire any day (late 30s). I currently don't do it cause my work is fun and I like the people, and the more I keep going the higher my expenses could become if needed. But the finances don't keep me in my job. And if anything comes along that looks sustainably more fun I will quit in a heartbeat.
  - markus_zhang 2y ago
    No. I already figured out my expenses, a couple of millions would be well enough. I'll quit job once I have one million.

hnthrowaway0315 2y ago

Exactly. I have thought about it for a while, I think I have to get rid of work or family to be substantially happier. Apparently getting rid of family is morally wrong, so the only option is to get rid of work, somehow, anyhow. I fully understand why people buy lottery tickets. Hope beats probability on every single instance. I, a Master of Statistics graduates, buy them too.

theoreticalmal 2y ago
Is morality really the major thing standing between you and “getting rid of your family”?
- hnthrowaway0315 2y ago
  Maybe, or maybe not. Now that I think about it, it's difficult to say. But let's say I would rather get rid of work than family, and I don't want to get rid of both. BTW changing job is still a lot easier than changing family :)
kenjackson 2y ago
What’s going on with your family? I can’t imagine much joy without mine.
- steve_adams_86 2y ago
  Me too. I’d have more freedom to do certain things I love, but they’d quickly lose their appeal and I’d have no one to share any of it with. My family are literally the only people who give half a shit about me. Life would be quiet and hollow without them.
- hnthrowaway0315 2y ago
  I guess I'm just not a family person. I don't have too much to complain about my family but I don't (net) gain much. Of course I'm as responsible as your usual parents on the street so I don't want to get rid of my family.
2y ago

steve_adams_86 2y ago

The older I get the more I realize that the most effective and productive things I can do are not at all what seem to be productive or effective on the surface. One of the most mentally and physically crippling things I’ve ever done was work too hard, for too long. I worked and earned more money than I thought I ever could but… All I truly got out of it was a lesson. To never do it again. I would have earned enough but also enjoyed my life had I just calmed down a bit. I’m sure you know as well as I do, if not better. It seemed worth noting though.

codazoda 2y ago
Did you ever start that non-tech business?
- steve_adams_86 2y ago
  Yes! It’s slow going. I grow and sell plant tissue cultures. Sometimes I get fairly large orders (hundreds of units), but usually I sell a few or a dozen at a time to hobbyists who are into aquaria, terraria, or they want stock to start cultures on their own more easily. I also grow and sell some other stuff, but that’s the bulk of it. I got started on some discord channels with other hobbyists, but I’m in the process of creating a store front that’ll hopefully boost revenue a bit. I’ll likely need to learn a bunch of boring stuff like marketing to actually get traffic to it, but we’ll see. It’s at an awkward stage where I need to devote more time to it in order to allow it to grow more, but I’ve also got a full time job, kids, a wife, etc. But I really enjoy it. I hope to make the leap to doing it full time eventually, but that would be a while off still. Do you have non-tech business ideas or plans?
  - Antipodes456 2y ago
    Us non-techies dream of tech businesses, hehe. Not having to deal with ecommerce inventory sounds dreamy Edit - typo
    - steve_adams_86 2y ago

svilen_dobrev 2y ago

There's one pie-chart of average person's life.. and only 9 years are left free out of-78 . - how-u-spend-it is up to you.. https://www.visualistan.com/2015/02/what-do-7-billion-people-do-infographic.html https://www.visualistan.com/2015/02/what-do-7-billion-people...

ydant 2y ago
Interesting perspective. Though, I'd argue it should be 18 years free by their math. They lump a subset of leisure activities into another category as if those are beyond your easy control. Commuting, working, grooming, etc - sure, you could optimize those, but it's harder to deviate from the norm. But TV/video games? Doesn't seem like the same discussion.

jll29 2y ago

In this Lex Fiedman video, they talk about how life is short, and a visualization as a spreadsheet is shown that makes one very concerned: Pieter Levels: Programming, Viral AI Startups, and Digital Nomad Life | Lex Fridman Podcast #440 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg [ironically, the podcast is very long - over 3 hours - speaking of not wasting time, but after initial annoyance I'm glad I watched it all.] The positive insight that can come out of that is use every week and don't waste it, and and if you can, move your long-term dreams closer to the here and now. I made a version of that spreadsheet for "the rest of my life" to hand it into my office as a reminder. (Even if I will live until 90, it fits my laptop screen without scrolling...)

dostick 2y ago
Should everyone make it? On one hand it’s awareness, on another- at cause endless anxiety that you now visualised how little it is and still can’t do anything..
dxuh 2y ago
Where can I find the visualization? Skipping through I could not find it and I am not sold on it enough to spend almost 4 hours on this.
etoulas 2y ago
Do you mind pointing out the Moment when they show this?

interludead 2y ago

We spend so much time optimizing for productivity that we sometimes miss the bigger picture: the quality of life itself, not just the quantity of tasks we can check off

harryquach 2y ago

This is why I have interest in the FIRE movement. Our lives are short and fleeting. If there is even a small chance I can become financially independent before traditional retirement age, I am going to optimize for that.