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Also in the UK and I certainly subscribe to r/fuckcars as I'm a keen cyclist and never got around to learning to drive. I find it annoying that media outlets (

Also in the UK and I certainly subscribe to r/fuckcars as I'm a keen cyclist and never got around to learning to drive. I find it annoying that media outlets (BBC - I'm looking mainly at you!) will refer to EVs as being car-shaped and then, as you said, demonise e-bikes by lumping them in with the illegal e-motorbikes (see the recent Panorama program for a clear case of not making clear the distinction between e-motorbikes and e-bikes). As I see it, the biggest problems with cars are their size and weight. With electric propulsion, the weight is a problem as they have to propel the vehicle and the batteries which obviously means even more weight (though they're typically only slightly more than ICE cars). This also leads to the problem of the vehicles taking longer to recharge and thus requiring upgraded infrastructure to allow people to charge them quickly. However, if we get as many people to use e-bikes or e-scooters, then the size and weight issues pretty much disappear. It's often feasible to have removable batteries, so the vehicle can be "recharged" instantly by swapping the battery (I believe this is very popular in some countries for food delivery riders). This also means that the battery recharging can be performed using a normal power socket without requiring upgraded infrastructure although it may be wise to keep an eye on the batteries whilst charging to prevent house fires. Incidentally, Mrs ndsipa_pomu recently bought a good quality e-bike (i.e. not one of the duck-taped conversions) and absolutely loves commuting on it as she sails past the traffic that she was previously trapped in. Though it's limited to assist only up to 15.5mph, she finds it powerful enough to cope with the hills.

light_hue_1 2y ago
I cycled for like 30 years before we had kids and needed a car. The ebikes that the post refers to are a menace and should be banned. Both as a cyclist and a driver. I've almost been plowed over by some idiot sitting on what should be a motorcycle but riding on the bike path. And I've almost had my kids run over. Also, as a driver you just don't expect someone to be going so crazy fast in the bike lane. I've had people at insane speeds just appear from behind parked cars. I'm all for pedal assist! But there should be strict speed limits. I also find that people just don't take these electric motorcycles seriously. They zone out because they aren't doing anything. That's also very dangerous.
- dijit 2y ago
  I find it hard to take the debate seriously because the default stance of everyone against electric 2-wheelers is not manual bikes, its cars. And, cars are multiple orders of magnitude more dangerous than anything on 2-wheels. I’m sure you’re right that theres room for improvement, but instead of building infrastructure (we literally shaped cities for cars after all)- we would rather ensure that cars are incumbent forever despite the harm we see them causing.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Cars are far less dangerous for occupants than 2 wheeled vehicles.
    - dijit 2y ago
      Perhaps there is less incentive then to drive dangerously.
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        That hasn't shown up in the fatality statistics for motorcycles. Sometimes more dangerous is just more dangerous.
        dijit 2y ago
        I’d appreciate it if there was an attempt to actually engage here, this is hardly the gotcha you might think. Most fatalities of motorcycles are due to collisions with cars, not other bikes nor pedestrians. Diligence won’t save you if a driver unexpectedly swerves into you. Undoubtedly there are stupid people and people who are more likely to take more risks will be more likely to engage in motorcycle riding; creating an additional selection bias. But, we’re talking about electric scooters, e-bikes and so on, the core issue remains to be that mixed use-infrastructure will have a loser. Letting cars drive on pavements isn’t permitted for the same reason e-bikes shouldn’t be in traffic (or on the pavement).
AnthonyMouse 2y ago
> However, if we get as many people to use e-bikes or e-scooters, then the size and weight issues pretty much disappear. I still don't understand how they expect to solve the occupant safety issue though. Cars travel at high speeds but have crumple zones and airbags. E-bikes travel at the same speeds but if you crash, you die. And 2-wheeled vehicles are easier to crash. The fatality rate for motorcycles is astonishingly bad and changing the propulsion type wouldn't really affect that.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  Some measures can be taken such as reducing urban speed limits to something like 20mph and increasing traffic enforcement so that riders/drivers have an incentive to take sufficient care. There's also the possibility of creating separated infrastructure to allow the smaller/lighter vehicle riders (e.g. two/three wheelers) to not have to tangle with car and lorry drivers. However that requires political will and infrastructure investment.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    Speed limits are set for the conditions, e.g. they're lower in an area with high pedestrian traffic than on the highway. But that's just dodging the issue; what do you do about the highway? Traveling at higher speeds on the appropriate roads is good and people want to continue to do that. You want plumbers and firefighters to be able to travel quickly from one side of the city to the other. So then you've got a highway, but if you put two-wheeled vehicles on it then people die, and if you disallow two-wheeled vehicles on it then people buy cars instead. Ironically, the somewhat obvious solution to this would be smaller/lighter cars (e.g. one- or two-seaters), but they can't pass the safety standards required for cars even though they would still be dramatically safer than two-wheeled vehicles.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      Furthermore, when I've eaten at the sidewalk area of a restaurant near a theater I go to in the summer, the protected bike lane has truly terrifying combinations of traffic outside of cars including what I guess are electric motorcycles. And, because it's a "bike" lane, a ton of users basically just blow through the red lights.
lo_zamoyski 2y ago
> However, if we get as many people to use e-bikes or e-scooters Replacing cars with bikes/scooters is unrealistic and unreasonable. You're either ignoring or unaware of the actual dependence on cars that exists and that cannot be dismissed.

light_hue_1 2y ago

I cycled for like 30 years before we had kids and needed a car. The ebikes that the post refers to are a menace and should be banned. Both as a cyclist and a driver. I've almost been plowed over by some idiot sitting on what should be a motorcycle but riding on the bike path. And I've almost had my kids run over. Also, as a driver you just don't expect someone to be going so crazy fast in the bike lane. I've had people at insane speeds just appear from behind parked cars. I'm all for pedal assist! But there should be strict speed limits. I also find that people just don't take these electric motorcycles seriously. They zone out because they aren't doing anything. That's also very dangerous.

dijit 2y ago
I find it hard to take the debate seriously because the default stance of everyone against electric 2-wheelers is not manual bikes, its cars. And, cars are multiple orders of magnitude more dangerous than anything on 2-wheels. I’m sure you’re right that theres room for improvement, but instead of building infrastructure (we literally shaped cities for cars after all)- we would rather ensure that cars are incumbent forever despite the harm we see them causing.
- lazide 2y ago
  Cars are far less dangerous for occupants than 2 wheeled vehicles.
  - dijit 2y ago
    Perhaps there is less incentive then to drive dangerously.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      That hasn't shown up in the fatality statistics for motorcycles. Sometimes more dangerous is just more dangerous.
      - dijit 2y ago
        I’d appreciate it if there was an attempt to actually engage here, this is hardly the gotcha you might think. Most fatalities of motorcycles are due to collisions with cars, not other bikes nor pedestrians. Diligence won’t save you if a driver unexpectedly swerves into you. Undoubtedly there are stupid people and people who are more likely to take more risks will be more likely to engage in motorcycle riding; creating an additional selection bias. But, we’re talking about electric scooters, e-bikes and so on, the core issue remains to be that mixed use-infrastructure will have a loser. Letting cars drive on pavements isn’t permitted for the same reason e-bikes shouldn’t be in traffic (or on the pavement).

AnthonyMouse 2y ago

> However, if we get as many people to use e-bikes or e-scooters, then the size and weight issues pretty much disappear. I still don't understand how they expect to solve the occupant safety issue though. Cars travel at high speeds but have crumple zones and airbags. E-bikes travel at the same speeds but if you crash, you die. And 2-wheeled vehicles are easier to crash. The fatality rate for motorcycles is astonishingly bad and changing the propulsion type wouldn't really affect that.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
Some measures can be taken such as reducing urban speed limits to something like 20mph and increasing traffic enforcement so that riders/drivers have an incentive to take sufficient care. There's also the possibility of creating separated infrastructure to allow the smaller/lighter vehicle riders (e.g. two/three wheelers) to not have to tangle with car and lorry drivers. However that requires political will and infrastructure investment.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  Speed limits are set for the conditions, e.g. they're lower in an area with high pedestrian traffic than on the highway. But that's just dodging the issue; what do you do about the highway? Traveling at higher speeds on the appropriate roads is good and people want to continue to do that. You want plumbers and firefighters to be able to travel quickly from one side of the city to the other. So then you've got a highway, but if you put two-wheeled vehicles on it then people die, and if you disallow two-wheeled vehicles on it then people buy cars instead. Ironically, the somewhat obvious solution to this would be smaller/lighter cars (e.g. one- or two-seaters), but they can't pass the safety standards required for cars even though they would still be dramatically safer than two-wheeled vehicles.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    Furthermore, when I've eaten at the sidewalk area of a restaurant near a theater I go to in the summer, the protected bike lane has truly terrifying combinations of traffic outside of cars including what I guess are electric motorcycles. And, because it's a "bike" lane, a ton of users basically just blow through the red lights.

lo_zamoyski 2y ago

> However, if we get as many people to use e-bikes or e-scooters Replacing cars with bikes/scooters is unrealistic and unreasonable. You're either ignoring or unaware of the actual dependence on cars that exists and that cannot be dismissed.