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Slightly pedantic nit: I know you're pointing out what "taxes" get you, but most people look at the tax brackets for income taxes and correlate that with the l

Slightly pedantic nit: I know you're pointing out what "taxes" get you, but most people look at the tax brackets for income taxes and correlate that with the level of government services they receive. It's important to note that income taxes do not fund Social Security and Medicare. These are funded through FICA taxes, paid 7.65% from the individual and the employer match of another 7.65%. That's why if you are self-employed (or do 1099 work on the side), you pay self employment taxes, which is both halves to the tune of 15.3%. So people actually pay their income tax (less the standard or itemized deductions) on the stairstep up to the top bracket IN ADDITION to FICA. Not passing judgment on whether it's an equitable deal for everyone involved, but we do get taxed pretty heavily. Especially when you throw state income taxes (for those states that have them) and property taxes into the mix.

pclmulqdq 2y ago
Income taxes absolutely do fund Social Security and Medicare. Those programs would be even more insolvent on FICA taxes alone.
- caspper69 2y ago
  Excuse me, sir. Please don't just tell me I'm wrong without doing some research. SS: https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/factsheets/HowAreSocialSecurity.htm https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/factsheets/HowAreSocialSecuri... How is Social Security financed? Social Security is financed through a dedicated payroll tax. Employers and employees each pay 6.2 percent of wages up to the taxable maximum of $176,100 (in 2025), while the self-employed pay 12.4 percent. Total income, including interest, to the combined OASI and DI Trust Funds amounted to $1.351 trillion in 2023. ($1.233 trillion from net payroll tax contributions, $51 billion from taxation of benefits, and $67 billion in interest) US Social Security Expenditures in 2023: $1.351 trillion. Do you see income taxes in there other than those from recipients? I won't dirty up this post further, but Medicare is likewise funded; like SS, income taxes on Social Security benefits do go partially to fund Medicare, as those people are generally program recipients. The final funding source is Part A premiums. I don't mind banter or disagreements, but please do not tell me I'm wrong when you have not even bothered to look. Your gut feeling is not a good basis to dispute someone's premise.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    You left out the cost of medicare from that calculation: $1.02 trillion of outlays in 2023 per the CMS (CBO has $800 billion here). Medicare taxes were $350 billion in 2023 per the CBO. Where does the rest of that money come from? Medicaid is another $600 billion and is also supposed to be supported by the Medicare tax. Social Security is mostly covered by its ~12.5% regressive tax (an extortionate rate, IMO). Medicare is not. In 2023, Social Security, per the CBO, had a ~$200 billion shortfall also (draining the trust fund), but that's small potatoes compared to the >$1 trillion hole in medicare/medicaid that is being supported by your income taxes. You linked a nice fact sheet, but the reality as shown by the group who actually oversees where the money goes is a bit different.
    - caspper69 2y ago
      The irony here is that nowhere in my original post did I claim there was no commingling of funds. In fact, I was trying to point out that our taxes were actually HIGHER than most people think due to FICA. Did I say these programs were covered? My point was that they were taxed separately. And to answer your question, the dirty little secret of government is that they raid the trust funds. Why else would the trust fund have interest income? But it's not really from income taxes, it's from raising money through issuing debt. I was not making the point you thought I was making.
      - pclmulqdq 2y ago
        Money is fungible, my friend. A dollar of tax income is equivalent to a dollar of debt. The trust fund, to be clear, is only for social security. It is not for Medicare. I should point out for full accuracy that Medicare part A also has a trust fund that is similarly draining (although this one is almost insolvent), but most of the programs in Medicare are not funded by the part A trust. Final edit: The Medicare trust fund also has a generous contribution from "general revenue" of the government - aka tax dollars.
        caspper69 2y ago
JackYoustra 2y ago
Hijacking your comment to make a point, how complicated are we already getting? The point of "taxes are too high" is now "a specific tax is too high relative to the residual benefits mix after cutting out two huge benefits programs, if we hold the possibility of future transfers from outside the dedicated revenue streams out" which, again, already so much more complicated and still way less than necessary to actually get to the goal. lots of taxes though yes

pclmulqdq 2y ago

Income taxes absolutely do fund Social Security and Medicare. Those programs would be even more insolvent on FICA taxes alone.

caspper69 2y ago
Excuse me, sir. Please don't just tell me I'm wrong without doing some research. SS: https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/factsheets/HowAreSocialSecurity.htm https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/factsheets/HowAreSocialSecuri... How is Social Security financed? Social Security is financed through a dedicated payroll tax. Employers and employees each pay 6.2 percent of wages up to the taxable maximum of $176,100 (in 2025), while the self-employed pay 12.4 percent. Total income, including interest, to the combined OASI and DI Trust Funds amounted to $1.351 trillion in 2023. ($1.233 trillion from net payroll tax contributions, $51 billion from taxation of benefits, and $67 billion in interest) US Social Security Expenditures in 2023: $1.351 trillion. Do you see income taxes in there other than those from recipients? I won't dirty up this post further, but Medicare is likewise funded; like SS, income taxes on Social Security benefits do go partially to fund Medicare, as those people are generally program recipients. The final funding source is Part A premiums. I don't mind banter or disagreements, but please do not tell me I'm wrong when you have not even bothered to look. Your gut feeling is not a good basis to dispute someone's premise.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  You left out the cost of medicare from that calculation: $1.02 trillion of outlays in 2023 per the CMS (CBO has $800 billion here). Medicare taxes were $350 billion in 2023 per the CBO. Where does the rest of that money come from? Medicaid is another $600 billion and is also supposed to be supported by the Medicare tax. Social Security is mostly covered by its ~12.5% regressive tax (an extortionate rate, IMO). Medicare is not. In 2023, Social Security, per the CBO, had a ~$200 billion shortfall also (draining the trust fund), but that's small potatoes compared to the >$1 trillion hole in medicare/medicaid that is being supported by your income taxes. You linked a nice fact sheet, but the reality as shown by the group who actually oversees where the money goes is a bit different.
  - caspper69 2y ago
    The irony here is that nowhere in my original post did I claim there was no commingling of funds. In fact, I was trying to point out that our taxes were actually HIGHER than most people think due to FICA. Did I say these programs were covered? My point was that they were taxed separately. And to answer your question, the dirty little secret of government is that they raid the trust funds. Why else would the trust fund have interest income? But it's not really from income taxes, it's from raising money through issuing debt. I was not making the point you thought I was making.
    - pclmulqdq 2y ago
      Money is fungible, my friend. A dollar of tax income is equivalent to a dollar of debt. The trust fund, to be clear, is only for social security. It is not for Medicare. I should point out for full accuracy that Medicare part A also has a trust fund that is similarly draining (although this one is almost insolvent), but most of the programs in Medicare are not funded by the part A trust. Final edit: The Medicare trust fund also has a generous contribution from "general revenue" of the government - aka tax dollars.
      - caspper69 2y ago

JackYoustra 2y ago

Hijacking your comment to make a point, how complicated are we already getting? The point of "taxes are too high" is now "a specific tax is too high relative to the residual benefits mix after cutting out two huge benefits programs, if we hold the possibility of future transfers from outside the dedicated revenue streams out" which, again, already so much more complicated and still way less than necessary to actually get to the goal. lots of taxes though yes