6 ms·
Ok, but taxes are too high though, for real
by crubier 2y ago
Ok, but taxes are too high though, for real
- JackYoustra 2y agoToo high for what? Too high for desired services level? Too high for most of the people or few? Too high for value? Too high for your personal preference? It's really important to be specific, and what I've written is still impossibly vague to be even close to actionable
- Henchman21 2y agoIn the US they’re too high for what we get: essentially nothing. So if I am taxed, things need to be done with those taxes. Not just line the pockets of whomever get it. I sure don’t.
- AlotOfReading 2y agoIn the US, you get social security, medicare/medicaid, the world's most powerful military, transportation infrastructure, education, fire departments, VA benefits, and hundreds of other things. You might not value any of it, but that's the parent's point: You aren't getting nothing, you're getting a lot of expensive things you don't value for your taxes. It's a completely different type of discussion to have and one that's much more amenable to productive discussion.
- Ygg2 2y ago> transportation infrastructure, education, fire departments, Didn't recent events like LA fires demonstrate just how neglected those services are. Having a better military in a war is great, but having overtly fat military industrial complex isn't that great.
- daveguy 2y agoApparently you fell for the narrative that LA ran out of water because they preferred to save the environment. Just so you know, it didn't matter how much water was in any reservoirs. There was plenty of water. The two failures that happened were -- 100 MPH wind after drought conditions, and the fact that if you try to get water out of every fire hydrant in a large area you will run out of water pressure. The solution to water pressure is increasing the number of reservoirs so that each one services a smaller area. That is done with infrastructure improvements that require a government willing to fund them, and residents willing to accept them. 100 MPH winds + drought conditions + fire over a large area is not addressable without massive over-provisioning. You may want to reconsider where you get your news from, because it seems you are being misinformed.
- pclmulqdq 2y agoThe local reservoir that serviced the palisades was out of service for months due to a tear in its roof which had yet to be fixed. The repair, per a competent repair person, would have taken a week if they had done it. That's why the water pressure locally was so low. They had already done what you wanted, and increased the number of reservoirs, but the relevant one had been out of service for months. It can both be true that Trump is a bloviating liar and the LA government is incompetent.
- daveguy 2y agoIt may be a bit more complicated than what a nameless "competent repair person" thought it should have been. Do you worship your news sources too? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/reservoir-pacific-palisades-was-commission-fire-started-rcna187217 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/reservoir-pacific-palis...
- Ygg2 2y agoAre droughts, fires or fast winds unknown conditions in LA? A government should be preparing for them. Doubly so a government that believes in climate change. Which was the opposite of what happened with firemen raising warnings but they falling on uninterested ears.
- Henchman21 2y agoI will not receive social security or medicare/medicaid, as they are actively being gutted today. Our military goes on adventures I have never supported (Iraq? Afghanistan?). I am not entitled to VA benefits. My education was trash. I’ll grant you fire depts & transportation, though the transport stuff isn’t at all properly invested in. I don’t care to make car companies more money. These are all the same as nothing to me. You can split hairs and say I am getting something not nothing, but that doesn’t change the lived experience of being poor, sick, and badly educated in the wealthiest nation. This world doesn’t exist for people like me— it exists for all you folks. And boy, lemme tell ya… I would be super happy to burn your world to the ground, and I say that with horror in my eyes as I look at the fires that Elon is starting.
- dasil003 2y agoJust because you don't support the decisions about how the military is deployed doesn't mean you don't benefit from its existence. Being an American citizen already comes out of the box with a bunch of benefits, and I'm unaware of any place with a similar standard of living that has lower taxes overall.
- riku_iki 2y agobut are you sure if those standards of living are because of striving economy and hardworking people or because of military adventures?
- JackYoustra 2y agowho is "all you folks"? Kinda, how do you say, too vague to be useful? and I'm sorry you were poor, sick, and badly educated, but the closest thing to "don't do that" was the American Rescue Plan's permanent child tax credit which cut child poverty in half and oh god wait that's a scheme in a huge bill and I've already lost everyone because that's still too complicated and now it's gone. That's the problem. Every time you repeat the cynical meme that nothing can be done and all taxes are wasted and everything you sap strength from the progress that can be made when we actually pull in the same direction: https://www.economist.com/special-report/2019/09/26/the-official-way-america-calculates-poverty-is-deeply-flawed https://www.economist.com/special-report/2019/09/26/the-offi... (see the image: https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1424,quality=80,format=auto/sites/default/files/images/2019/09/articles/body/20190928_src552.png https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1424,quality=8...)
- caspper69 2y agoSlightly pedantic nit: I know you're pointing out what "taxes" get you, but most people look at the tax brackets for income taxes and correlate that with the level of government services they receive. It's important to note that income taxes do not fund Social Security and Medicare. These are funded through FICA taxes, paid 7.65% from the individual and the employer match of another 7.65%. That's why if you are self-employed (or do 1099 work on the side), you pay self employment taxes, which is both halves to the tune of 15.3%. So people actually pay their income tax (less the standard or itemized deductions) on the stairstep up to the top bracket IN ADDITION to FICA. Not passing judgment on whether it's an equitable deal for everyone involved, but we do get taxed pretty heavily. Especially when you throw state income taxes (for those states that have them) and property taxes into the mix.
- pclmulqdq 2y agoIncome taxes absolutely do fund Social Security and Medicare. Those programs would be even more insolvent on FICA taxes alone.
- caspper69 2y agoExcuse me, sir. Please don't just tell me I'm wrong without doing some research. SS: https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/factsheets/HowAreSocialSecurity.htm https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/factsheets/HowAreSocialSecuri... How is Social Security financed? Social Security is financed through a dedicated payroll tax. Employers and employees each pay 6.2 percent of wages up to the taxable maximum of $176,100 (in 2025), while the self-employed pay 12.4 percent. Total income, including interest, to the combined OASI and DI Trust Funds amounted to $1.351 trillion in 2023. ($1.233 trillion from net payroll tax contributions, $51 billion from taxation of benefits, and $67 billion in interest) US Social Security Expenditures in 2023: $1.351 trillion. Do you see income taxes in there other than those from recipients? I won't dirty up this post further, but Medicare is likewise funded; like SS, income taxes on Social Security benefits do go partially to fund Medicare, as those people are generally program recipients. The final funding source is Part A premiums. I don't mind banter or disagreements, but please do not tell me I'm wrong when you have not even bothered to look. Your gut feeling is not a good basis to dispute someone's premise.
- aprilthird2021 2y agoSenior citizens get Medicare SSN, impoverished get Medicaid. The military contractors make money from the military. I pay for a private school because it's the only single-sex option. Sure, I get transportation and infrastructure. So do a whole ton of countries. We are the wealthiest country in the world. If all the average person will get is transportation and infrastructure, it can be improved from what it currently is.
- JackYoustra 2y agoSS and healthcare are the two most expensive parts and will likely always be, and the nature of healthcare is the average won't see anywhere near the amount of money they're spending. The social choice we've come to is we'll spend the money anyway because it's (in general) morally repulsive to let (most) medically-addressible suffering go on for want of money, so I'm not sure how we can get around that.
- aprilthird2021 2y agoI'm not against paying for SS and Medicare, but there are tons of changes we could make that would benefit average Americans.
- JackYoustra 2y agoWhat are some you have in mind?
- aprilthird2021 2y agoDecrease foreign aid. Instead of $25+B to Israel (just an example, sure there are tons of others), we can keep the money for ourselves.
- lwansbrough 2y ago"Americans get nothing for their taxes" is... certainly an opinion.
- llamaimperative 2y agoAn opinion that can only seriously emerge atop the safest, most prosperous empire to ever exist.
- yard2010 2y agoFor some people, living hell for the poor.
- throw16180339 2y agoIt's someone who was born on third base complaining that they have to run to home plate.
- orf 2y ago> In the US they’re too high for what we get: essentially nothing He wrote, using his 5g phone connection and the internet from the safety of his home. Outside, a car sits silently in the driveway.
- Henchman21 2y agoYes, I am very safe in my little cage where I take my antibiotics and still kiss with saliva. A cage is still a cage.
- orf 2y agoAnd it’s an entirely different point to the initial one.
- Henchman21 2y agoAre you speaking to me or everyone BUT me? Because I’ll be both direct and honest: this is the type of bullshit that causes me to withdraw from interacting with the bulk of humanity. Mock me all you like.
- JackYoustra 2y agothe point is that all the things that commenter listed are enabled by the taxes we pay - it's the price we pay for living in a civilized society. Saying that they don't directly pay it misses the forest for the trees: we decide to pay taxes for things in a system that overall produces these outcomes, treating them separately is to split parts of a coevolved system
- Henchman21 2y agoCivilized society doesn’t require a layer of working poor at the bottom to function. That is what I am a part of: the great mass of unfulfilled workers with no choices, no chance for advancement. I’m a blue collar worker right on the edge of high end white collar work. I see on a daily basis that which I can never possess. The system produces these outcomes because that is the desired design goal of the system. If this is “civilization” I want no part of it. But then, we don’t get that choice anymore do we? Where could I go on Earth to escape my fate? Because all I see is my own death is the only escape
- Swizec 2y agoAs a non-american paying american taxes: I would like more of my money to go into welfare and social transfers to make the country more liveable to all, and less into million dollar bombs thrown at thousand dollar homes. Or, like, at least fix all the potholes maybe?
- JackYoustra 2y agoSTILL too vague - _most_ of the federal budget goes to SS and medicare / medicaid. Potholes are almost exclusively a local-level thing, so calling them "american" taxes is a bit off, you'd be thinking more about state and municipal taxes at that point. The impediment that sucks up ~40% of CPI is housing, and that is overwhelmingly constrained by really crappy zoning and building regulation at the local level. Not much the federal government can do against that without going full constitutional crisis or amendment.
- Swizec 2y ago> _most_ of the federal budget goes to SS and medicare / medicaid Okay but social security isn’t the government’s money, it’s ours. The program is profitable afaik (gets more than it pays out). Govt is just holding/managing the money and needs to track it as debt when they use that money for anything other than giving to people.
- JackYoustra 2y agoAll of the government's money is our money? Not sure what this means.
- majormajor 2y ago> The impediment that sucks up ~40% of CPI is housing, and that is overwhelmingly constrained by really crappy zoning and building regulation at the local level. Not much the federal government can do against that without going full constitutional crisis or amendment. Housing cost in popular areas/major cities is not solely an American problem. So a lot of the American-specific stories about why it's high - "zoning", "parking requirements", "NIMBY's" aren't fully satisfying. Few places have solved it. Big successful cities often keep growing around the world which means constantly increasing demand which means an affordability trend that rarely goes in the right direction. In a classically-efficient market, where those with the $$$ to do major development projects often substantially overlap with those who have major $$$ stake in prices staying high, few things are more necessary than housing so why wouldn't we expect the price to approach the max that individuals could bear? Removing regulation isn't enough, IMO, since nobody with the money to make major investments in housing wants to rock the price boat too quickly or suddenly. You need proactive regulation on both pricing and public development efforts to undercut the current market.
- scarmig 2y agoThe level of taxation is not the most relevant thing, even though it attracts the most attention. There are countless socially valuable things that they can be spent on. The core issue is that Americans don't get back much for their level of taxation. The USA is a fundamentally dog-eat-dog place. Given that, working Americans pay an absurd amount of taxes. I pay over 40% of my income in local, state, and federal taxes. Despite that, it's not hard to imagine being thrown onto the streets to die after experiencing a single issue. Where is it going? Not to me, and not to any services I'll be able to access in times of difficulty.
- ericjmorey 2y agoNo
- tomtomtom777 2y agoI don't no which country you are from but in the western world, if you compare countries by their tax rates, countries with high taxes [1] tend to score quite well on quality-of-life comparisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_ta...
- yard2010 2y agoI would cross check it with corruption levels, sometimes high taxes are just organized crime with extra steps.
- winwang 2y agoAnd you know this to be true (indubitably), based on what, exactly? (I'm not even sure which country you're referencing either).