6 ms·

I'm afraid the author has it backwards. This style of writing didn't start as a font from some company. This is just how you used to be taught to do lettering

by 60654 2y ago

I'm afraid the author has it backwards. This style of writing didn't start as a font from some company. This is just how you used to be taught to do lettering in a drafting class. The straight lines and simple shapes make it easy to do lettering with pencil or a pen, which is also why all the lines are the same width and all the line caps are rounded. Later on these turned into stencils, which let users do lettering quickly by tracing the pen inside the stencil - and then turned into fonts for use in print. But all that came later. What we have here is just lettering people learned in drafting classes, and which was later used to make stencils and templates.

xnx 2y ago
> The straight lines and simple shapes make it easy to do lettering with pencil or a pe I'm guessing these letters are also easy to create with a CNC machine. (Now that the page has loaded I see he identifies engraving machines.)
cluckindan 2y ago
You need to actually read the article before commenting.
- taurknaut 2y ago
  Nah, I just tried and it works fine.
- 60654 2y ago
  I did...?
  - Clamchop 2y ago
    The article goes into almost tedious detail about where it came from, and whether it constitutes a "proper" font. I think you may have skimmed too fast.
    - 60654 2y ago
      That's an assumption, I read it just fine. :) I just disagree with how the author keeps talking about draftsman's lettering as if it were some company's font (e.g. Gorton and Leroy) rather than a commonly taught community standard.
      - fyrn_ 2y ago
        They do later talk about the real origin in 1894 in England, with TT&H creating it due to the constraints of their self-built lettering machine to engrave tiny letters on their products
        tmoertel 2y ago
        As I mention in a previous comment [1], this style of hand lettering was common in textbooks prior to 1894. From 1883, for example, we find this specimen in Standard Lettering, published by the Columbia School of Drafting: https://archive.org/details/standardletterin00claf/page/42/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/standardletterin00claf/page/42/m... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43055792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43055792
        yuriks 2y ago
        And again, the article explicitly mentions that, with a picture of a similar book: > I don’t know how this first proto-Gorton was designed – unfortunately, Taylor, Taylor & Hobson’s history seems sparse and despite personal travels to U.K. archives, I haven’t found anything interesting – but I know simple technical writing standards existed already, and likely influenced the appearance of the newfangled routing font.
        tmoertel 2y ago
        The issue is that the author presents the entire set of typefaces that are similar to Gorton as derived from Gorton without presenting evidence to rule out the obvious alternative lineage: that, just like genuine Gorton, they too were derived from the various regional single-stroke letterforms that draftsman everywhere were taught and used. Excellent draftsman’s examples abounded and would have been so much more common than genuine Gorton and its genuine ancestors that it’s hard to believe that regional companies marketing their own type engraving machines would have had to copy Gorton rather than local examples of the draftsman’s art that were considered superior.
  - ahoka 2y ago
    Read it again then, because all of these are discussed in the article.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42688981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42688981>
  - cluckindan 2y ago
    [flagged]
bitwize 2y ago
Yeah -- my dad's lettering template had letterforms like this. As the article mentions, the Simplex characters from the Hershey set, used in CAD applications, are based on this font, probably for consistency with how drafting was traditionally done.
terribleperson 2y ago
I think it's worth calling a font when there were likely cases of the font being transmitted, by copying from one source to another. E.G. Gorton being made by machines licensed from another company, then the output of those machines being used for lettering guides.
tmoertel 2y ago
I think you're right. I also believe that it's more likely that the font was informed by what was commonly taught as good lettering for technical drawings in that era. For example, consider the one-stroke gothic lettering in 1883's Standard Lettering, published by the Columbia School of Drafting: https://archive.org/details/standardletterin00claf/page/42/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/standardletterin00claf/page/42/m... And here's A TEXT-BOOK OF FREE-HAND LETTERING, part of the TECHNICAL DRAWING SERIES, first published in 1895: https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/n5/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/... Consider the "single-stroke lettering" suggested in that texbook: https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/62/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/... https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/66/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/... Also consider the model forms for pre-penciled gothic lettering: https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/14/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/... It seems that such lettering was already common when the machines were introduced to produce similar lettering.
- card_zero 2y ago
  The 3 with a flat top is a "banker's 3", an anti-forgery measure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3 Playing cards use this style of lettering. Not sure how far back that goes but I kind of doubt they all derive from Gorton's specific engraving machines.
  - eCa 2y ago
    And used on eg German license plates, for at least partly that reason (IIUC).
  - lencastre 2y ago
    Down the rabbit hole I go….
  - spacechild1 2y ago
    Ah, that makes sense! Thanks for this insight!
fenomas 2y ago
> This style of writing didn't start as a font from some company. TFA doesn't suggest that, at all. A font is a concrete instantiation of a writing style, and TFA is about the history of one such concrete instance - not the general style it's an instance of. Also the connection to drafting and lettering stencils is discussed in some detail midway through. (Also more generally: kind of amazing to imagine reading an article of this depth, that mentions years of obsessive research and links to the author's 1200-page book on the history of typing, and thinking: "yeah this guy probably doesn't know about drafting".)
- 60654 2y ago
  Of course I read the details on stencils and patterns in the text. But you misunderstand what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are many "concrete instantiations" of drafting lettering style, that all look basically the same, because they all came from the same source, and Gorton is just one of them. So what we're seeing in elevators and on plaques is not "Gorton" specifically. While in contrast we do see Helvetica specifically on NYC subway signs, Johnston in the London tube, etc. Too fine of a point? Perhaps. And also, it doesn't take away from the quality of the essay which is a delightful romp through the history of draftman's lettering showing up in all sorts of forgotten utilitarian places. (But I've got to ask - what's with the ad hominem at the end? We should be above that.)
  - fenomas 2y ago
    > What I'm saying is that there are many "concrete instantiations" of drafting lettering style, that all look basically the same, because they all came from the same source, and Gorton is just one of them. Open a couple of old drafting lettering guides (e.g. ones linked in sibling comments or TFA), and look closely. They'll obviously have a similar overall vibe, but there'll be tons of variations - differently shaped 3/4/7, where the curves start and stop on letters like CJGS569, whether the various corners are pointed or rounded or flattened, etc. If your premise above is true, then we'd expect to see similar sorts of variations in the various fonts derived from drafting style, and TFA's entire point is that the author has collected hundreds of cases where we don't. Check his photos - they show the same font with the same idiosyncrasies, the off-balance G, two flattened points on the 4, the slightly asymmetric 8, etc. TFA is about the ubiquity of that specific set of letter shapes (modulo some variations that he discusses), not just of lettering that's generally in the drafting style. (Also: in the best of faith and not meant as shade, you might want to look up "ad-hominem".)
rambambram 2y ago
After reading such a beautiful piece about an interesting topic and researched for hundreds of miles on end, I can rest assured that somebody on HN knows better. No doubts, no nothing... "just" knows it better. Edit: The above might sound too harsh, sorry. You're probably right, but after reading such a beautiful piece, your reaction was really a buzzkill for me.
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  > The above might sound too harsh, sorry. Perfectly accurate though.
atoav 2y ago
I learned that style of writing in school (German: Normschrift). I think this is where the origins of the font lie, but having read the article I don't see how the author is wrong here. This is just a thing they failed to emphasize — maybe — considering the credentials, because it was blaringly obvious to them. This feels more like a detrctive story about figuring out the origins of one concrete manifestation of a font and not a text about where that family of fonts comes from.
wlonkly 2y ago
This was also pointed out in the article, but the point at which it became a physical standard, and not a lettering style, was with the Gorton engravers. (The tail of the Q is a tell -- not a straight line, not a simple shape, but identical in lettering systems based on the engravers.)
- oskarkk 2y ago
  Also, 7 usually has a straight line in technical lettering, but in Gorton is curved in a specific way.

by 60654 2y ago

xnx 2y ago

> The straight lines and simple shapes make it easy to do lettering with pencil or a pe I'm guessing these letters are also easy to create with a CNC machine. (Now that the page has loaded I see he identifies engraving machines.)

cluckindan 2y ago

You need to actually read the article before commenting.

taurknaut 2y ago
Nah, I just tried and it works fine.
60654 2y ago
I did...?
- Clamchop 2y ago
  The article goes into almost tedious detail about where it came from, and whether it constitutes a "proper" font. I think you may have skimmed too fast.
  - 60654 2y ago
    That's an assumption, I read it just fine. :) I just disagree with how the author keeps talking about draftsman's lettering as if it were some company's font (e.g. Gorton and Leroy) rather than a commonly taught community standard.
    - fyrn_ 2y ago
      They do later talk about the real origin in 1894 in England, with TT&H creating it due to the constraints of their self-built lettering machine to engrave tiny letters on their products
      - tmoertel 2y ago
        As I mention in a previous comment [1], this style of hand lettering was common in textbooks prior to 1894. From 1883, for example, we find this specimen in Standard Lettering, published by the Columbia School of Drafting: https://archive.org/details/standardletterin00claf/page/42/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/standardletterin00claf/page/42/m... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43055792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43055792
        yuriks 2y ago
        And again, the article explicitly mentions that, with a picture of a similar book: > I don’t know how this first proto-Gorton was designed – unfortunately, Taylor, Taylor & Hobson’s history seems sparse and despite personal travels to U.K. archives, I haven’t found anything interesting – but I know simple technical writing standards existed already, and likely influenced the appearance of the newfangled routing font.
        tmoertel 2y ago
        The issue is that the author presents the entire set of typefaces that are similar to Gorton as derived from Gorton without presenting evidence to rule out the obvious alternative lineage: that, just like genuine Gorton, they too were derived from the various regional single-stroke letterforms that draftsman everywhere were taught and used. Excellent draftsman’s examples abounded and would have been so much more common than genuine Gorton and its genuine ancestors that it’s hard to believe that regional companies marketing their own type engraving machines would have had to copy Gorton rather than local examples of the draftsman’s art that were considered superior.
- ahoka 2y ago
  Read it again then, because all of these are discussed in the article.
dredmorbius 2y ago
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42688981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42688981>
- cluckindan 2y ago
  [flagged]

bitwize 2y ago

Yeah -- my dad's lettering template had letterforms like this. As the article mentions, the Simplex characters from the Hershey set, used in CAD applications, are based on this font, probably for consistency with how drafting was traditionally done.

terribleperson 2y ago

I think it's worth calling a font when there were likely cases of the font being transmitted, by copying from one source to another. E.G. Gorton being made by machines licensed from another company, then the output of those machines being used for lettering guides.

tmoertel 2y ago

I think you're right. I also believe that it's more likely that the font was informed by what was commonly taught as good lettering for technical drawings in that era. For example, consider the one-stroke gothic lettering in 1883's Standard Lettering, published by the Columbia School of Drafting: https://archive.org/details/standardletterin00claf/page/42/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/standardletterin00claf/page/42/m... And here's A TEXT-BOOK OF FREE-HAND LETTERING, part of the TECHNICAL DRAWING SERIES, first published in 1895: https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/n5/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/... Consider the "single-stroke lettering" suggested in that texbook: https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/62/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/... https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/66/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/... Also consider the model forms for pre-penciled gothic lettering: https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/14/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/textbookoffreeha00daniiala/page/... It seems that such lettering was already common when the machines were introduced to produce similar lettering.

card_zero 2y ago
The 3 with a flat top is a "banker's 3", an anti-forgery measure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3 Playing cards use this style of lettering. Not sure how far back that goes but I kind of doubt they all derive from Gorton's specific engraving machines.
- eCa 2y ago
  And used on eg German license plates, for at least partly that reason (IIUC).
- lencastre 2y ago
  Down the rabbit hole I go….
- spacechild1 2y ago
  Ah, that makes sense! Thanks for this insight!

fenomas 2y ago

> This style of writing didn't start as a font from some company. TFA doesn't suggest that, at all. A font is a concrete instantiation of a writing style, and TFA is about the history of one such concrete instance - not the general style it's an instance of. Also the connection to drafting and lettering stencils is discussed in some detail midway through. (Also more generally: kind of amazing to imagine reading an article of this depth, that mentions years of obsessive research and links to the author's 1200-page book on the history of typing, and thinking: "yeah this guy probably doesn't know about drafting".)

60654 2y ago
Of course I read the details on stencils and patterns in the text. But you misunderstand what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are many "concrete instantiations" of drafting lettering style, that all look basically the same, because they all came from the same source, and Gorton is just one of them. So what we're seeing in elevators and on plaques is not "Gorton" specifically. While in contrast we do see Helvetica specifically on NYC subway signs, Johnston in the London tube, etc. Too fine of a point? Perhaps. And also, it doesn't take away from the quality of the essay which is a delightful romp through the history of draftman's lettering showing up in all sorts of forgotten utilitarian places. (But I've got to ask - what's with the ad hominem at the end? We should be above that.)
- fenomas 2y ago
  > What I'm saying is that there are many "concrete instantiations" of drafting lettering style, that all look basically the same, because they all came from the same source, and Gorton is just one of them. Open a couple of old drafting lettering guides (e.g. ones linked in sibling comments or TFA), and look closely. They'll obviously have a similar overall vibe, but there'll be tons of variations - differently shaped 3/4/7, where the curves start and stop on letters like CJGS569, whether the various corners are pointed or rounded or flattened, etc. If your premise above is true, then we'd expect to see similar sorts of variations in the various fonts derived from drafting style, and TFA's entire point is that the author has collected hundreds of cases where we don't. Check his photos - they show the same font with the same idiosyncrasies, the off-balance G, two flattened points on the 4, the slightly asymmetric 8, etc. TFA is about the ubiquity of that specific set of letter shapes (modulo some variations that he discusses), not just of lettering that's generally in the drafting style. (Also: in the best of faith and not meant as shade, you might want to look up "ad-hominem".)

rambambram 2y ago

After reading such a beautiful piece about an interesting topic and researched for hundreds of miles on end, I can rest assured that somebody on HN knows better. No doubts, no nothing... "just" knows it better. Edit: The above might sound too harsh, sorry. You're probably right, but after reading such a beautiful piece, your reaction was really a buzzkill for me.

zimpenfish 2y ago
> The above might sound too harsh, sorry. Perfectly accurate though.

atoav 2y ago

I learned that style of writing in school (German: Normschrift). I think this is where the origins of the font lie, but having read the article I don't see how the author is wrong here. This is just a thing they failed to emphasize — maybe — considering the credentials, because it was blaringly obvious to them. This feels more like a detrctive story about figuring out the origins of one concrete manifestation of a font and not a text about where that family of fonts comes from.

wlonkly 2y ago

This was also pointed out in the article, but the point at which it became a physical standard, and not a lettering style, was with the Gorton engravers. (The tail of the Q is a tell -- not a straight line, not a simple shape, but identical in lettering systems based on the engravers.)

oskarkk 2y ago
Also, 7 usually has a straight line in technical lettering, but in Gorton is curved in a specific way.