4 ms·

> moral leadership matters in government Yes, but I think it's pretty clear the "majority" of Americans don't consider moral leadership to be of much value, ce

> moral leadership matters in government Yes, but I think it's pretty clear the "majority" of Americans don't consider moral leadership to be of much value, certainly not compared to the price of eggs or making sure trans people use their "God ordained bathroom".

wat10000 2y ago
I think it's more that they have a _very_ different view of what morality consists of.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  For some things (e.g. abortion), this is a plausible explanation; but that doesn't explain the sheer vindictiveness of confiscating the travel documents of people who are at risk of bodily harm if they can't leave the region (to give one example).
  - wat10000 2y ago
    It does. A major (perhaps the sole) aspect of this morality is that certain people are good and certain people are bad and the rules exist to benefit the former and to be used against the latter.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  Do they? From what I've read, they tend to excuse Trump's immorality (which is pretty obvious), because "cheap gas" and "deep state Marxists". It's really hard to square Trump with "traditional American Judeo-Christian morals".
  - wat10000 2y ago
    I don't mean "traditional American Judeo-Christian morals," whatever those are. I mean an authoritarian mindset. Trump is definitionally good because he's "strong" and he's their leader. Similarly, police are definitionally good because they enforce the law. Anything they do (unless it's against their own, or against a group more worthy than they) is therefore inherently justified. They excuse Trump's immorality because they don't see it as immorality. They might talk about it in those terms, but that's just because they know that things like having sex with a porn star while married is generally considered wrong. It's not actually used as part of the evaluation of how good or bad a person is.
    - insane_dreamer 2y ago
      Trying to understand your point here (I think we actually agree, but you're coming at it from a different angle). So you're saying that because they accept Trump as their leader, therefore whatever he does is "moral", regardless of what former "morality standards" they might have had? (I brought up Judeo-Christian because that's where traditionally American moral standards have come from, the 10 Commandments and all.) Or are you saying that all along their moral standards have been "to the strongest" (more Darwinistic in nature).
      - wat10000 2y ago
        I mean all along. Obviously this doesn't apply to every Trump supporter, but there's a large core that inherently thinks this way. What's new is that Trump has leaned into this mindset much more than his predecessors, and he's much more obviously immoral by "normal" (i.e. something along the lines of what you and I probably think) standards. Bob Altemeyer explains this mindset much better than I could in his book The Authoritarians: https://theauthoritarians.org https://theauthoritarians.org
        insane_dreamer 2y ago
        Interesting. Thanks for the link. Certainly Trump has normalized certain behavior (like over racism, sexism, ableism, me-first-and-fuck-everyone-else capitalism/Americanism, fascism too though people don't understand it as that) that society looked like it was gradually getting away from over the last 50 years. It's sad to see how quickly all that resurfaces with only a little encouragement.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Don't kill the messenger. For them, deep state Marxism and expensive gas is a moral failing as well. If you think taxes are theft, then that makes politicians morally bankrupt. Would you pick a cop with a history of sexual assault, or one that robs you?

wat10000 2y ago

I think it's more that they have a _very_ different view of what morality consists of.

wizzwizz4 2y ago
For some things (e.g. abortion), this is a plausible explanation; but that doesn't explain the sheer vindictiveness of confiscating the travel documents of people who are at risk of bodily harm if they can't leave the region (to give one example).
- wat10000 2y ago
  It does. A major (perhaps the sole) aspect of this morality is that certain people are good and certain people are bad and the rules exist to benefit the former and to be used against the latter.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
Do they? From what I've read, they tend to excuse Trump's immorality (which is pretty obvious), because "cheap gas" and "deep state Marxists". It's really hard to square Trump with "traditional American Judeo-Christian morals".
- wat10000 2y ago
  I don't mean "traditional American Judeo-Christian morals," whatever those are. I mean an authoritarian mindset. Trump is definitionally good because he's "strong" and he's their leader. Similarly, police are definitionally good because they enforce the law. Anything they do (unless it's against their own, or against a group more worthy than they) is therefore inherently justified. They excuse Trump's immorality because they don't see it as immorality. They might talk about it in those terms, but that's just because they know that things like having sex with a porn star while married is generally considered wrong. It's not actually used as part of the evaluation of how good or bad a person is.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Trying to understand your point here (I think we actually agree, but you're coming at it from a different angle). So you're saying that because they accept Trump as their leader, therefore whatever he does is "moral", regardless of what former "morality standards" they might have had? (I brought up Judeo-Christian because that's where traditionally American moral standards have come from, the 10 Commandments and all.) Or are you saying that all along their moral standards have been "to the strongest" (more Darwinistic in nature).
    - wat10000 2y ago
      I mean all along. Obviously this doesn't apply to every Trump supporter, but there's a large core that inherently thinks this way. What's new is that Trump has leaned into this mindset much more than his predecessors, and he's much more obviously immoral by "normal" (i.e. something along the lines of what you and I probably think) standards. Bob Altemeyer explains this mindset much better than I could in his book The Authoritarians: https://theauthoritarians.org https://theauthoritarians.org
      - insane_dreamer 2y ago
        Interesting. Thanks for the link. Certainly Trump has normalized certain behavior (like over racism, sexism, ableism, me-first-and-fuck-everyone-else capitalism/Americanism, fascism too though people don't understand it as that) that society looked like it was gradually getting away from over the last 50 years. It's sad to see how quickly all that resurfaces with only a little encouragement.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Don't kill the messenger. For them, deep state Marxism and expensive gas is a moral failing as well. If you think taxes are theft, then that makes politicians morally bankrupt. Would you pick a cop with a history of sexual assault, or one that robs you?