4 ms·

Maybe because opting into tracking via "Music" or "Photos" when I've already consented to tracking at the OS level is redundant? There's no unknown 3rd party h

Maybe because opting into tracking via "Music" or "Photos" when I've already consented to tracking at the OS level is redundant? There's no unknown 3rd party here - it's all Apple. In the case of apps from the App Store, there are/were 3rd party trackers - I download "Candy Crush" and it sends data to Meta or Google or somebody else.

voisin 2y ago
> I download "Candy Crush" and it sends data to Meta or Google or somebody else. Was the Candy Crush developer getting paid for inserting these trackers, or did they only get paid where they also showed ads?
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Both companies offer various tracking products that don't require ads. Google Analytics, Facebook share/login integrations, etc.
realusername 2y ago
> I've already consented to tracking at the OS level Isn't that sentence by itself kind of insane? Tracking at the OS level used to be unacceptable. Nobody should expect their OS to track them like this in the first place.
- Spivak 2y ago
  Not saying what's being collected isn't invasive but over time we've redefined spyware and tracking to include logging, error reporting, and telemetry. Someone in the 90's would be imagining bonzi buddy when you say tracking when it's actually pendo.
  - Latty 2y ago
    Companies have intentionally bucketed those things together with invasive ad tracking so they can obfuscate what the user is agreeing to. As with GDPR, it's easy to offer a good user experience and do the right things by default, but there is an active choice being made to make it annoying and misleading to try and trick users into doing stuff that is against their own interests.
    - Spivak 2y ago
      Apple isn't, I can turn off ad tracking and keep analytics on.
      - Latty 2y ago
        Sure, but the "redefinition" you talk of isn't consumers suddenly being unreasonable, it's the fact they've experienced so much gaslighting and unclear dark patterns they are (reasonably) assuming everything is suspect and rejecting it all.
  - realusername 2y ago
    And what about something like the AdvertisingID? The OS creates an identifier for the purpose of tracking you with ads.
    - gruez 2y ago
      Before that app developers were reading IMEI or mac addresses, which were arguably worse because they can't be reset.
      - realusername 2y ago
        Isn't that just because the sandboxing is really poor on mobile compared to the web? You cannot read those on the web.
  - alabastervlog 2y ago
    This has it backwards: “telemetry” or otherwise collecting info without explicitly asking each time was definitely, for-sure just spyware as late as the mid ‘00s. We only later decided a bunch of that definitely-not-ok stuff was ok.
buran77 2y ago
> I've already consented to tracking at the OS level That's very wide and obscure. Even the bullet points for how the OS can track you go past what can be considered informed consent. If that consent covers every 1st party app that will ever run on the phone then it's a guarantee nothing in about it is really informed. If you think a vague, blanket consent is all it takes then every company will get one in a jiffy. Just touch any company's real estate in any way whatsoever, get a prompt that "you consented to being tracked in any company related app forever", profit. You "consented". Remember when Disney tried to get out of a wrongful death lawsuit by citing some agreement the family of the victim accepted for a Disney+ trial years before? [0] Well you're describing the same principle. Consent should be granular. [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disney-says-man-cant-sue-wifes-death-agreed-disney-terms-service-rcna166594 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disney-says-man-cant-su...
- CharlesW 2y ago
  > That's very wide and obscure. It's not "obscure" to anyone who takes 5 minutes to ask for it. Apple will happily send you all the data they have about you. https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/apple-data-and-privacy-how-to-find-out-what-personal-data-theyre-keeping/ https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/apple-data-and-privacy-how... https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-request/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-r...
  - buran77 2y ago
    You're shooting blanks from the hip. Jumping to answer without even understanding the question or the point of the article. When I activate a brand new iPhone I don't get presented with Cnet/Zdnet articles from 7 years that tell me that the OS tracking I'm consenting to now will be pooled with any tracking collected from any Apple app now or in the future. Apple does not allow 3rd party apps to cross track. Insta app can't collect tracking from the FB app. And that's great. But Apple's apps are excluded from this and allow cross tracking. Apple pools together all the tracking it has access to between OS and apps. OP says they're fine with it because they already trusted the OS. But the OS and the apps are different things. What the OS does is at technical level, the apps know what medication I take, how well I slept last night, or which stores I buy my things in. Combining that is way more intimate than "OS tracking". I trust Apple more than most other big tech companies but such policies still don't sit right with me. They advertise "privacy" but then eschew their own rules. Downloading my takeout data after the fact won't prevent Apple apps from pooling tracking data in the first place.
jajko 2y ago
Mam, I wish I had your blind trust into multibillion corporations. I am experienced enough to know that I simply don't. Champions of privacy should do better, no they should clearly lead the market, like it was with updates. I mean thats the main value proposition for Apple these days, no? At least for more tech users.
- alistairSH 2y ago
  I don't trust Apple - I assume they're tracking. Their record here is better than Google or MS, but that's a pretty low bar. And now that I've picked my poison for overall ecosystem, I want to limit (or at least opt-in) to other tracking.

voisin 2y ago

> I download "Candy Crush" and it sends data to Meta or Google or somebody else. Was the Candy Crush developer getting paid for inserting these trackers, or did they only get paid where they also showed ads?

ceejayoz 2y ago
Both companies offer various tracking products that don't require ads. Google Analytics, Facebook share/login integrations, etc.

realusername 2y ago

> I've already consented to tracking at the OS level Isn't that sentence by itself kind of insane? Tracking at the OS level used to be unacceptable. Nobody should expect their OS to track them like this in the first place.

Spivak 2y ago
Not saying what's being collected isn't invasive but over time we've redefined spyware and tracking to include logging, error reporting, and telemetry. Someone in the 90's would be imagining bonzi buddy when you say tracking when it's actually pendo.
- Latty 2y ago
  Companies have intentionally bucketed those things together with invasive ad tracking so they can obfuscate what the user is agreeing to. As with GDPR, it's easy to offer a good user experience and do the right things by default, but there is an active choice being made to make it annoying and misleading to try and trick users into doing stuff that is against their own interests.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Apple isn't, I can turn off ad tracking and keep analytics on.
    - Latty 2y ago
      Sure, but the "redefinition" you talk of isn't consumers suddenly being unreasonable, it's the fact they've experienced so much gaslighting and unclear dark patterns they are (reasonably) assuming everything is suspect and rejecting it all.
- realusername 2y ago
  And what about something like the AdvertisingID? The OS creates an identifier for the purpose of tracking you with ads.
  - gruez 2y ago
    Before that app developers were reading IMEI or mac addresses, which were arguably worse because they can't be reset.
    - realusername 2y ago
      Isn't that just because the sandboxing is really poor on mobile compared to the web? You cannot read those on the web.
- alabastervlog 2y ago
  This has it backwards: “telemetry” or otherwise collecting info without explicitly asking each time was definitely, for-sure just spyware as late as the mid ‘00s. We only later decided a bunch of that definitely-not-ok stuff was ok.

buran77 2y ago

> I've already consented to tracking at the OS level That's very wide and obscure. Even the bullet points for how the OS can track you go past what can be considered informed consent. If that consent covers every 1st party app that will ever run on the phone then it's a guarantee nothing in about it is really informed. If you think a vague, blanket consent is all it takes then every company will get one in a jiffy. Just touch any company's real estate in any way whatsoever, get a prompt that "you consented to being tracked in any company related app forever", profit. You "consented". Remember when Disney tried to get out of a wrongful death lawsuit by citing some agreement the family of the victim accepted for a Disney+ trial years before? [0] Well you're describing the same principle. Consent should be granular. [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disney-says-man-cant-sue-wifes-death-agreed-disney-terms-service-rcna166594 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disney-says-man-cant-su...

CharlesW 2y ago
> That's very wide and obscure. It's not "obscure" to anyone who takes 5 minutes to ask for it. Apple will happily send you all the data they have about you. https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/apple-data-and-privacy-how-to-find-out-what-personal-data-theyre-keeping/ https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/apple-data-and-privacy-how... https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-request/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-r...
- buran77 2y ago
  You're shooting blanks from the hip. Jumping to answer without even understanding the question or the point of the article. When I activate a brand new iPhone I don't get presented with Cnet/Zdnet articles from 7 years that tell me that the OS tracking I'm consenting to now will be pooled with any tracking collected from any Apple app now or in the future. Apple does not allow 3rd party apps to cross track. Insta app can't collect tracking from the FB app. And that's great. But Apple's apps are excluded from this and allow cross tracking. Apple pools together all the tracking it has access to between OS and apps. OP says they're fine with it because they already trusted the OS. But the OS and the apps are different things. What the OS does is at technical level, the apps know what medication I take, how well I slept last night, or which stores I buy my things in. Combining that is way more intimate than "OS tracking". I trust Apple more than most other big tech companies but such policies still don't sit right with me. They advertise "privacy" but then eschew their own rules. Downloading my takeout data after the fact won't prevent Apple apps from pooling tracking data in the first place.

jajko 2y ago

Mam, I wish I had your blind trust into multibillion corporations. I am experienced enough to know that I simply don't. Champions of privacy should do better, no they should clearly lead the market, like it was with updates. I mean thats the main value proposition for Apple these days, no? At least for more tech users.

alistairSH 2y ago
I don't trust Apple - I assume they're tracking. Their record here is better than Google or MS, but that's a pretty low bar. And now that I've picked my poison for overall ecosystem, I want to limit (or at least opt-in) to other tracking.