6 ms·

Why not? Student loans are a good protection against brain drain. If you offer free university, there's a likelihood that people will take you up on it then mov

Why not? Student loans are a good protection against brain drain. If you offer free university, there's a likelihood that people will take you up on it then move out of the country, thus wasting the money invested in educating that person. A student loan guarantees a good return on investment for people you educate. Admittedly, America solves this problem by charging income tax for citizens living abroad, but a loan is better in my view since you can't rescind it like you could a citizenship. I actually think the concept of student loans should be extended down to primary education. I also think it would be good to institute a similar system for medical debt.

MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
The protection against that brain drain is to have a country worth staying in.
- taylodl 2y ago
  That is an excellent response. If you're afraid educating your citizens will cause them to realize their country is crap, then your country is crap.
  - HideousKojima 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - taylodl 2y ago
      Why stop funding at the university level? Why not also defund high school and middle school as well? After all, by the end of the 5th grade you should be able to read, write, and do simple arithmetic. Anything beyond that you can fund yourself, right?
      - HideousKojima 2y ago
        >Why stop funding at the university level? Among many other reasons: Subsidizing demand increases prices. When you subsidize university education, you increase the price of it. The metoric rise in inflation-adjusted cost of university education since the 70's or so is strong evidence of this. If someone wants to major in feminist dance therapy, that should be on their own dime. Using my tax money to fund it is immoral. >Why not also defund high school and middle school as well? After all, by the end of the 5th grade you should be able to read, write, and do simple arithmetic. Anything beyond that you can fund yourself, right? I'm actually not entirely unsympathetic to drastically cutting down how much mandatory education we have for kids. There is very little (if any) correlation between the funding amount and actual results. See Abbott districts in Bew Jersey for a stark example of this.
        MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
        > If someone wants to major in feminist dance therapy, that should be on their own dime. Using my tax money to fund it is immoral. And if they want to major in economics, chemistry, physics, engineering? I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying wholesale, but "I don't like this tiny corner so throw the whole thing in the trash" is immature, foolish, and self-destructive.
        HideousKojima 2y ago
        >And if they want to major in economics, chemistry, physics, engineering? Those at least serve a practical purpose to society as a whole, but even then I still would question taking other people's money by force to fund it.
        bumby 2y ago
        What do you use to define “practical purpose”? There’s a saying that “science is necessary, but art is the reason why we live.” If you dig deep enough, subjective experience is what we’re often trying to improve. Both science and art contribute to that.
        2y ago
  - James_K 2y ago
    And how do you make your country not crap? Well, it starts with educating people. But when you educate them, they leave. You've effectively been forced to subsidise the skilled workforce of another country and your own country is worse than it was to begin with. This is a stupid petty response that doesn't really make any sense and is also deeply and unnecessarily offensive to large parts of the world.
    - hn_acc1 2y ago
      Some stay. And if the younger ones coming up find a lot of peers are also educated, they'll stay too, to work with them. Yes, you lose some. But not all. And that's how you start.
    - anigbrowl 2y ago
      Your arguments seem to rest on highly questionable assumptions like 'when you educate them, they leave'.
    - theshackleford 2y ago
      Care to post a source suggesting that education in isolation leads to people leaving in majority numbers?
      - James_K 2y ago
        Most countries that are the recipients of skilled migrants won't allow entrance without a university degree. Education is a precondition for this migration. That's why it's called "brain drain". If people aren't educated, it doesn't matter if they leave or not.
        theshackleford 2y ago
        This in no way answers the question and is not a source of any kind that supports the argument you made.
  - bumby 2y ago
    This reminds me of an apocryphal business story: a bunch of managers were sitting around discussing a request to give more training to employees. One manager asked, “What if we train them and they leave!?” To which a more senior manager quipped, “What if we don’t train them and they stay?”
- James_K 2y ago
  To have a country worth staying in, you need an educated population. Can't get money if you don't have money. And it's especially hard if all the money you invest goes down the toilet from other countries freeloading off your investment.
Sohcahtoa82 2y ago
> medical debt As far as I'm concerned, "medical debt" is effectively extortion. If I have some sort of major medical issue, such as cancer, it's absolutely fucked that my choices are to either die or to rack up an extreme amount of medical debt that I might not ever recover from. In either case, my life is ruined.
- James_K 2y ago
  By "similar system", I am mainly considering one by which the debt doesn't actually have to be paid back by the individual. Generally my idea is that the debt is paid back by the country the person pays taxes in, though obviously this is not feasible at present.
muddi900 2y ago
Running away without paying the loan is a way better solution. Y'all have the delulu American exceptionalism brain. People will leave if they don't like living here. A loan eill not stop them.
- James_K 2y ago
  The international financial system makes it very hard to "run away" from a loan. Unless you are genuinely willing to become a wanted fugitive, you will end up having to pay.
  - muddi900 2y ago
    There are a non-trivial numbers of absconders hiding in the US and the UK. The most famous example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijay_Mallya?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijay_Mallya?useskin=vector The amount of money and effort required to extradite a person far outweighs the average student loan. Not only that, it is not really a "crime" to not pay your debts. It is a civil violation. The court can seize your property, in limits. You can't seize someones house in some states, and some don't even allow you to seize cars. Even if they can, any given student loan holder may not have either.
int_19h 2y ago
This reminds me of one of the propaganda points used in Soviet times to justify denying permission to emigrate to Soviet Jews in 1970-80s. Since they got free education courtesy of the state, they were supposed to stay and "work it off".

MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago

The protection against that brain drain is to have a country worth staying in.

taylodl 2y ago
That is an excellent response. If you're afraid educating your citizens will cause them to realize their country is crap, then your country is crap.
- HideousKojima 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - taylodl 2y ago
    Why stop funding at the university level? Why not also defund high school and middle school as well? After all, by the end of the 5th grade you should be able to read, write, and do simple arithmetic. Anything beyond that you can fund yourself, right?
    - HideousKojima 2y ago
      >Why stop funding at the university level? Among many other reasons: Subsidizing demand increases prices. When you subsidize university education, you increase the price of it. The metoric rise in inflation-adjusted cost of university education since the 70's or so is strong evidence of this. If someone wants to major in feminist dance therapy, that should be on their own dime. Using my tax money to fund it is immoral. >Why not also defund high school and middle school as well? After all, by the end of the 5th grade you should be able to read, write, and do simple arithmetic. Anything beyond that you can fund yourself, right? I'm actually not entirely unsympathetic to drastically cutting down how much mandatory education we have for kids. There is very little (if any) correlation between the funding amount and actual results. See Abbott districts in Bew Jersey for a stark example of this.
      - MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
        > If someone wants to major in feminist dance therapy, that should be on their own dime. Using my tax money to fund it is immoral. And if they want to major in economics, chemistry, physics, engineering? I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying wholesale, but "I don't like this tiny corner so throw the whole thing in the trash" is immature, foolish, and self-destructive.
        HideousKojima 2y ago
        >And if they want to major in economics, chemistry, physics, engineering? Those at least serve a practical purpose to society as a whole, but even then I still would question taking other people's money by force to fund it.
        bumby 2y ago
        What do you use to define “practical purpose”? There’s a saying that “science is necessary, but art is the reason why we live.” If you dig deep enough, subjective experience is what we’re often trying to improve. Both science and art contribute to that.
      - 2y ago
- James_K 2y ago
  And how do you make your country not crap? Well, it starts with educating people. But when you educate them, they leave. You've effectively been forced to subsidise the skilled workforce of another country and your own country is worse than it was to begin with. This is a stupid petty response that doesn't really make any sense and is also deeply and unnecessarily offensive to large parts of the world.
  - hn_acc1 2y ago
    Some stay. And if the younger ones coming up find a lot of peers are also educated, they'll stay too, to work with them. Yes, you lose some. But not all. And that's how you start.
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    Your arguments seem to rest on highly questionable assumptions like 'when you educate them, they leave'.
  - theshackleford 2y ago
    Care to post a source suggesting that education in isolation leads to people leaving in majority numbers?
    - James_K 2y ago
      Most countries that are the recipients of skilled migrants won't allow entrance without a university degree. Education is a precondition for this migration. That's why it's called "brain drain". If people aren't educated, it doesn't matter if they leave or not.
      - theshackleford 2y ago
        This in no way answers the question and is not a source of any kind that supports the argument you made.
- bumby 2y ago
  This reminds me of an apocryphal business story: a bunch of managers were sitting around discussing a request to give more training to employees. One manager asked, “What if we train them and they leave!?” To which a more senior manager quipped, “What if we don’t train them and they stay?”
James_K 2y ago
To have a country worth staying in, you need an educated population. Can't get money if you don't have money. And it's especially hard if all the money you invest goes down the toilet from other countries freeloading off your investment.

Sohcahtoa82 2y ago

> medical debt As far as I'm concerned, "medical debt" is effectively extortion. If I have some sort of major medical issue, such as cancer, it's absolutely fucked that my choices are to either die or to rack up an extreme amount of medical debt that I might not ever recover from. In either case, my life is ruined.

James_K 2y ago
By "similar system", I am mainly considering one by which the debt doesn't actually have to be paid back by the individual. Generally my idea is that the debt is paid back by the country the person pays taxes in, though obviously this is not feasible at present.

muddi900 2y ago

Running away without paying the loan is a way better solution. Y'all have the delulu American exceptionalism brain. People will leave if they don't like living here. A loan eill not stop them.

James_K 2y ago
The international financial system makes it very hard to "run away" from a loan. Unless you are genuinely willing to become a wanted fugitive, you will end up having to pay.
- muddi900 2y ago
  There are a non-trivial numbers of absconders hiding in the US and the UK. The most famous example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijay_Mallya?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijay_Mallya?useskin=vector The amount of money and effort required to extradite a person far outweighs the average student loan. Not only that, it is not really a "crime" to not pay your debts. It is a civil violation. The court can seize your property, in limits. You can't seize someones house in some states, and some don't even allow you to seize cars. Even if they can, any given student loan holder may not have either.

int_19h 2y ago

This reminds me of one of the propaganda points used in Soviet times to justify denying permission to emigrate to Soviet Jews in 1970-80s. Since they got free education courtesy of the state, they were supposed to stay and "work it off".