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In this moment many people dislike Elon. But history will give a clearer picture of whether their dislike was for legitimate reasons (like the alleged 'state ca

In this moment many people dislike Elon. But history will give a clearer picture of whether their dislike was for legitimate reasons (like the alleged 'state capture'), or less legitimate reasons (like the recent US election outcome, or clickbaity news stories). History is not always that esoteric. Everyone said Iraq was about oil and would be a disaster. That’s exactly what it was. In fact, people were saying it before it happened, as it happened, and after it happened. You see: https://youtu.be/tAjqGnQpVks https://youtu.be/tAjqGnQpVks All those people back then were not wrong. And all these people today are also not wrong.

nomilk 2y ago
It's easy to judge whether reducing government waste and improving living standards is good/bad (obviously it's good). What will be less enduring is the current Elon-hate which is more based on tribalism and mood than reason.
- bloomingkales 2y ago
  I think you and many people in this space are just ignoring traits. Everybody in tech knows this. Long as you are a “rockstar”, we ignore traits. I don’t even want to begin listing them because it might burn some people, but here goes: - empathy (cannot sit side by side with ruthlessness) - honesty (cannot sit side by side with corruption) - charity (cannot sit side by side with greed) - morality (cannot sit side by side with amorality) - peaceful (cannot sit side by side with power hunger, vindictiveness) Those aren’t exactly culture fits in tech. So, what do we have here? Non-empathetic corrupt amoral greedy power hungry genius. The last trait is the only one you see, for whatever reason. We are not saints, but we have fucking try a little bit here.
  - seandoe 2y ago
    > I think you and many people in this space are just ignoring traits. Or people just disagree with you.
    - bloomingkales 2y ago
      Disagreeing doesn’t mean they are right. So another way to say what you said was maybe they are just incorrect. I’ll take the silence as incorrectness, especially because it’s not a climate to be silent.
- MrJohz 2y ago
  Is it tribalism to judge a person based on their stated opinions, their actions, and the organisations and people they hang out with? > It's easy to judge whether reducing government waste and improving living standards is good/bad (obviously it's good). What you have described is obviously good. The question remains whether DOGE will achieve those aims, or if it does, whether the side-effects of its work will outweigh the benefits. To go back to the Iraq war, the mission statement of destroying weapons of mass destruction was obviously good. Unfortunately, there were no weapons of mass destruction, and even if there had been, the tremendous chaos and cost of the operation would have been a large price to pay. I am sceptical that DOGE is really about efficiency in the first place. And even if it is, I am even more sceptical that they will be able to achieve these aims, based on the behaviour that they have shown so far, and based on what I have already experienced of government efficiency initiatives.
  - disqard 2y ago
    You sparked a thought / mental model: The US ruling class periodically senses "blood in the water", and sets things up for a "feeding frenzy" (money and/or power), where a small, well-connected elite engorge themselves on hapless victims. Iraq and Afghanistan provided such opportunities during my lifetime, and before that, it was the Vietnam war, and history has plenty more examples farther back. In this most recent feeding frenzy, it appears to me, that the victims are some important (maybe critical) parts of the US itself. A sort of auto-cannibalism, if you will.
  - antifa 2y ago
    They define efficiency to exclude benefiting the working class.
- palmotea 2y ago
  > It's easy to judge whether reducing government waste ... is good/bad (obviously it's good). Don't be so silly. Outside of a few small areas like fraud, if something is "government waste" or not is often totally subjective Is NASA "government waste"? Arguably it is (though Musk and most of HN would disagree). I'd argue what Musk is doing isn't "eliminating waste" or "increasing efficiency," but rather implementing a purely opinionated refactoring to match his views.
- nmz 2y ago
  Never thought I'd hear being a nazi referred to as tribalism. But you are right.

nomilk 2y ago

It's easy to judge whether reducing government waste and improving living standards is good/bad (obviously it's good). What will be less enduring is the current Elon-hate which is more based on tribalism and mood than reason.

bloomingkales 2y ago
I think you and many people in this space are just ignoring traits. Everybody in tech knows this. Long as you are a “rockstar”, we ignore traits. I don’t even want to begin listing them because it might burn some people, but here goes: - empathy (cannot sit side by side with ruthlessness) - honesty (cannot sit side by side with corruption) - charity (cannot sit side by side with greed) - morality (cannot sit side by side with amorality) - peaceful (cannot sit side by side with power hunger, vindictiveness) Those aren’t exactly culture fits in tech. So, what do we have here? Non-empathetic corrupt amoral greedy power hungry genius. The last trait is the only one you see, for whatever reason. We are not saints, but we have fucking try a little bit here.
- seandoe 2y ago
  > I think you and many people in this space are just ignoring traits. Or people just disagree with you.
  - bloomingkales 2y ago
    Disagreeing doesn’t mean they are right. So another way to say what you said was maybe they are just incorrect. I’ll take the silence as incorrectness, especially because it’s not a climate to be silent.
MrJohz 2y ago
Is it tribalism to judge a person based on their stated opinions, their actions, and the organisations and people they hang out with? > It's easy to judge whether reducing government waste and improving living standards is good/bad (obviously it's good). What you have described is obviously good. The question remains whether DOGE will achieve those aims, or if it does, whether the side-effects of its work will outweigh the benefits. To go back to the Iraq war, the mission statement of destroying weapons of mass destruction was obviously good. Unfortunately, there were no weapons of mass destruction, and even if there had been, the tremendous chaos and cost of the operation would have been a large price to pay. I am sceptical that DOGE is really about efficiency in the first place. And even if it is, I am even more sceptical that they will be able to achieve these aims, based on the behaviour that they have shown so far, and based on what I have already experienced of government efficiency initiatives.
- disqard 2y ago
  You sparked a thought / mental model: The US ruling class periodically senses "blood in the water", and sets things up for a "feeding frenzy" (money and/or power), where a small, well-connected elite engorge themselves on hapless victims. Iraq and Afghanistan provided such opportunities during my lifetime, and before that, it was the Vietnam war, and history has plenty more examples farther back. In this most recent feeding frenzy, it appears to me, that the victims are some important (maybe critical) parts of the US itself. A sort of auto-cannibalism, if you will.
- antifa 2y ago
  They define efficiency to exclude benefiting the working class.
palmotea 2y ago
> It's easy to judge whether reducing government waste ... is good/bad (obviously it's good). Don't be so silly. Outside of a few small areas like fraud, if something is "government waste" or not is often totally subjective Is NASA "government waste"? Arguably it is (though Musk and most of HN would disagree). I'd argue what Musk is doing isn't "eliminating waste" or "increasing efficiency," but rather implementing a purely opinionated refactoring to match his views.
nmz 2y ago
Never thought I'd hear being a nazi referred to as tribalism. But you are right.