6 ms·

State Capture

67 points by bloomingkales 2y ago

mempko 2y ago
What Musk is doing with DOGE parallels what the Chicago school consultants did in Russia under Yeltsin during the 90s. It didn't go well.
- PessimalDecimal 2y ago
  How does it parallel that?
  - vaindil 2y ago
    I searched "chicago school consultants russia yeltsin" and found this article [0], which goes into great detail and the parallels are pretty obvious. [0] https://www.thenation.com/article/world/harvard-boys-do-russia/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/harvard-boys-do-russ...
nomilk 2y ago
> The term has also been used against Elon Musk by critics of U.S. President Donald Trump. The term is predicated on government doing the right thing (and the persuasive private interest doing the wrong thing). History furnishes thousands of examples. In Musk's case it's the opposite. He's helping prevent government doing the wrong thing: unnecessarily burdening productive endeavour (e.g. internet, rockets, tunnels, electric vehicles) and interesting work (e.g. science and exploration) through overregulation, as well as wasting tax payer money. In this moment many people dislike Elon. But history will give a clearer picture of whether their dislike was for legitimate reasons (like the alleged 'state capture'), or less legitimate reasons (like the recent US election outcome, or clickbaity news stories).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bloomingkales 2y ago
  In this moment many people dislike Elon. But history will give a clearer picture of whether their dislike was for legitimate reasons (like the alleged 'state capture'), or less legitimate reasons (like the recent US election outcome, or clickbaity news stories). History is not always that esoteric. Everyone said Iraq was about oil and would be a disaster. That’s exactly what it was. In fact, people were saying it before it happened, as it happened, and after it happened. You see: https://youtu.be/tAjqGnQpVks https://youtu.be/tAjqGnQpVks All those people back then were not wrong. And all these people today are also not wrong.
  - nomilk 2y ago
    It's easy to judge whether reducing government waste and improving living standards is good/bad (obviously it's good). What will be less enduring is the current Elon-hate which is more based on tribalism and mood than reason.
    - bloomingkales 2y ago
      I think you and many people in this space are just ignoring traits. Everybody in tech knows this. Long as you are a “rockstar”, we ignore traits. I don’t even want to begin listing them because it might burn some people, but here goes: - empathy (cannot sit side by side with ruthlessness) - honesty (cannot sit side by side with corruption) - charity (cannot sit side by side with greed) - morality (cannot sit side by side with amorality) - peaceful (cannot sit side by side with power hunger, vindictiveness) Those aren’t exactly culture fits in tech. So, what do we have here? Non-empathetic corrupt amoral greedy power hungry genius. The last trait is the only one you see, for whatever reason. We are not saints, but we have fucking try a little bit here.
      - seandoe 2y ago
        > I think you and many people in this space are just ignoring traits. Or people just disagree with you.
        2y ago
- aappleby 2y ago
  "History will show that letting a bunch of teenagers managed by a narcissist wreck the government was a good idea." Yeah, right.
- klipt 2y ago
  Is America supposed to be a republic or a dictatorship? What transparency do we have into Musk's decisions? Why should we give one person power to ignore Congressional laws and the Constitution? How is that different to a dictatorship?
- brendoelfrendo 2y ago
  So the guy who has repeatedly misrepresented or misunderstood how the government works as his staff are tearing it apart and firing tens of thousands of people is... good actually? I'm sorry, I don't buy it and the only way history will buy it is when they finally dismantle the Department of Education and force it into the history textbooks.
  - nomilk 2y ago
    He did it for twitter and it worked amazingly well. A lot of smart people scoffed at how there was no way he could run twitter with 80% fewer staff (here's a great example of the sentiment typical at the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkNkSQ42jg4&t=22m20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkNkSQ42jg4&t=22m20s). But Twitter is just fine. If 80% of twitter was bloat, imagine government!
    - jppope 2y ago
      Debatably twitter had really smart people build systems that could operate without human intervention. So not really sure we want to say that was a success story for Elon Musk so much as he bought a software company where the software worked. Since the take over the product has gotten noticeably worse as far as reliability and with the algorithmic content promotion. The core functionality has stayed, but the overall experience has gotten worse. I do basically agree with the concept that twitter is running without as many people as they had - it is in fact doing that. It's just doing worse than it was and has been a pretty poor business venture for its investors except those who were using it for its capabilities to influence... things appeared to work out for those people. So if the point of a business is to make money and the way they are supposed to do that is through a software product I would say the results are mixed at this moment. Now so far as comparing the government to a software company... not sure thats really how we want to look at this or try to operate the government. Government is basically supposed to exist for market externalities - things the markets can't or shouldn't take care of. Is there bloat in the government? any sane adult can answer that question with a yes without even blinking... but theres also stuff thats easy to gut for savings that we need when shit hits the fan. Thats the stuff thats not so great to save money on. Improving the government is a great thing and we should strive for it... I would just prefer ya know Congress do it since its their job and not an eccentric billionaire.
- esafak 2y ago
  Even if you think the government is too big, this is not the proper way to shrink it. Let Congress take care of it; his party has majority.
  - nomilk 2y ago
    Meaningfully reducing the size of government is a surprisingly rare occurrence throughout history. A counter question: how should it be done? Elon's strategy is bold; 'deleting' entire departments. But that decision seems somewhat rational, if you agree that it doesn't need ~450 departments. I don't claim to have answers, just that the Elon approach seems bold but, frankly, quite sound. What are the alternatives?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - ty6853 2y ago
      Milton Friedman seems to think ending tax deduction at payroll might work, since forcing people to write a fat check every year will get them screaming to their reps or electing frugal reps.
      - jfengel 2y ago
        Lowering taxes isn't frugal. Frugality is on the spending side, not the revenue side. Such screaming never tells you how to cut the revenue side. (Except, of course, for the IRS, who generates orders of magnitude more revenue than they spend.) When asked, people will always say "Cut the spending on those people over there; spending on me is necessary and critical." I'd argue that's what's needed is less screaming and more coherent discussion of national priorities. But I suppose that just invoking somebody's ideological grudges and firing everybody in the vicinity of them is good, too.
        ty6853 2y ago
        Milton Friedman painstakingly designed the income tax withholding precisely to facilitate increased spending. Given his great body of works and actual experience in implementation, I don't think his opinions are brushed away by your strawman fight about what frugality was said to be . He advocated for eliminating automatic withholding because he saw exactly how it manufactured assent for spending [0], an effect of his own mechanisms he helped design for the circa WW2 war era. https://archive.org/details/twoluckypeopleme00frie https://archive.org/details/twoluckypeopleme00frie
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  Meow meow meow
computerthings 2y ago
Now this is interesting.. when this had 17 votes in 17 minutes I was like "yeah this is gonna get flagged" so I left it open in a tab. Now I see it's not flagged, yet I can't find it on the first 20 pages of the front page, either.
- jppope 2y ago
  I went looking and you are correct. Super interesting. It appears there's some auto mod feature or something?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - rl3 2y ago
    It's nothing new; happens frequently. My guess is it's a compromise between a hard flag kill that silences all discussion, and letting the submission continue trending.
- rl3 2y ago
  Good. The discussion quickly became the 2025 version of this, everyone proceeding to argue with him: https://thehardtimes.net/blog/why-i-quit-my-job-and-left-my-wife-to-defend-elon-musk-online-full-time/ https://thehardtimes.net/blog/why-i-quit-my-job-and-left-my-...
  - computerthings 2y ago
    Good what? I wasn't complaining that shit gets memory holed here, I observed something I had never seen before. The discussion seems generally really informative, it's mostly the people who don't want the topic discussed who are shit at discussing it. It's a skill issue.
    - bloomingkales 2y ago
      Annmnnnnnd we’re flagged.

67 points by bloomingkales 2y ago

What Musk is doing with DOGE parallels what the Chicago school consultants did in Russia under Yeltsin during the 90s. It didn't go well.

PessimalDecimal 2y ago
How does it parallel that?
- vaindil 2y ago
  I searched "chicago school consultants russia yeltsin" and found this article [0], which goes into great detail and the parallels are pretty obvious. [0] https://www.thenation.com/article/world/harvard-boys-do-russia/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/harvard-boys-do-russ...

nomilk 2y ago

> The term has also been used against Elon Musk by critics of U.S. President Donald Trump. The term is predicated on government doing the right thing (and the persuasive private interest doing the wrong thing). History furnishes thousands of examples. In Musk's case it's the opposite. He's helping prevent government doing the wrong thing: unnecessarily burdening productive endeavour (e.g. internet, rockets, tunnels, electric vehicles) and interesting work (e.g. science and exploration) through overregulation, as well as wasting tax payer money. In this moment many people dislike Elon. But history will give a clearer picture of whether their dislike was for legitimate reasons (like the alleged 'state capture'), or less legitimate reasons (like the recent US election outcome, or clickbaity news stories).

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bloomingkales 2y ago
In this moment many people dislike Elon. But history will give a clearer picture of whether their dislike was for legitimate reasons (like the alleged 'state capture'), or less legitimate reasons (like the recent US election outcome, or clickbaity news stories). History is not always that esoteric. Everyone said Iraq was about oil and would be a disaster. That’s exactly what it was. In fact, people were saying it before it happened, as it happened, and after it happened. You see: https://youtu.be/tAjqGnQpVks https://youtu.be/tAjqGnQpVks All those people back then were not wrong. And all these people today are also not wrong.
- nomilk 2y ago
  It's easy to judge whether reducing government waste and improving living standards is good/bad (obviously it's good). What will be less enduring is the current Elon-hate which is more based on tribalism and mood than reason.
  - bloomingkales 2y ago
    I think you and many people in this space are just ignoring traits. Everybody in tech knows this. Long as you are a “rockstar”, we ignore traits. I don’t even want to begin listing them because it might burn some people, but here goes: - empathy (cannot sit side by side with ruthlessness) - honesty (cannot sit side by side with corruption) - charity (cannot sit side by side with greed) - morality (cannot sit side by side with amorality) - peaceful (cannot sit side by side with power hunger, vindictiveness) Those aren’t exactly culture fits in tech. So, what do we have here? Non-empathetic corrupt amoral greedy power hungry genius. The last trait is the only one you see, for whatever reason. We are not saints, but we have fucking try a little bit here.
    - seandoe 2y ago
      > I think you and many people in this space are just ignoring traits. Or people just disagree with you.
      - 2y ago
aappleby 2y ago
"History will show that letting a bunch of teenagers managed by a narcissist wreck the government was a good idea." Yeah, right.
klipt 2y ago
Is America supposed to be a republic or a dictatorship? What transparency do we have into Musk's decisions? Why should we give one person power to ignore Congressional laws and the Constitution? How is that different to a dictatorship?
brendoelfrendo 2y ago
So the guy who has repeatedly misrepresented or misunderstood how the government works as his staff are tearing it apart and firing tens of thousands of people is... good actually? I'm sorry, I don't buy it and the only way history will buy it is when they finally dismantle the Department of Education and force it into the history textbooks.
- nomilk 2y ago
  He did it for twitter and it worked amazingly well. A lot of smart people scoffed at how there was no way he could run twitter with 80% fewer staff (here's a great example of the sentiment typical at the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkNkSQ42jg4&t=22m20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkNkSQ42jg4&t=22m20s). But Twitter is just fine. If 80% of twitter was bloat, imagine government!
  - jppope 2y ago
    Debatably twitter had really smart people build systems that could operate without human intervention. So not really sure we want to say that was a success story for Elon Musk so much as he bought a software company where the software worked. Since the take over the product has gotten noticeably worse as far as reliability and with the algorithmic content promotion. The core functionality has stayed, but the overall experience has gotten worse. I do basically agree with the concept that twitter is running without as many people as they had - it is in fact doing that. It's just doing worse than it was and has been a pretty poor business venture for its investors except those who were using it for its capabilities to influence... things appeared to work out for those people. So if the point of a business is to make money and the way they are supposed to do that is through a software product I would say the results are mixed at this moment. Now so far as comparing the government to a software company... not sure thats really how we want to look at this or try to operate the government. Government is basically supposed to exist for market externalities - things the markets can't or shouldn't take care of. Is there bloat in the government? any sane adult can answer that question with a yes without even blinking... but theres also stuff thats easy to gut for savings that we need when shit hits the fan. Thats the stuff thats not so great to save money on. Improving the government is a great thing and we should strive for it... I would just prefer ya know Congress do it since its their job and not an eccentric billionaire.
esafak 2y ago
Even if you think the government is too big, this is not the proper way to shrink it. Let Congress take care of it; his party has majority.
- nomilk 2y ago
  Meaningfully reducing the size of government is a surprisingly rare occurrence throughout history. A counter question: how should it be done? Elon's strategy is bold; 'deleting' entire departments. But that decision seems somewhat rational, if you agree that it doesn't need ~450 departments. I don't claim to have answers, just that the Elon approach seems bold but, frankly, quite sound. What are the alternatives?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ty6853 2y ago
    Milton Friedman seems to think ending tax deduction at payroll might work, since forcing people to write a fat check every year will get them screaming to their reps or electing frugal reps.
    - jfengel 2y ago
      Lowering taxes isn't frugal. Frugality is on the spending side, not the revenue side. Such screaming never tells you how to cut the revenue side. (Except, of course, for the IRS, who generates orders of magnitude more revenue than they spend.) When asked, people will always say "Cut the spending on those people over there; spending on me is necessary and critical." I'd argue that's what's needed is less screaming and more coherent discussion of national priorities. But I suppose that just invoking somebody's ideological grudges and firing everybody in the vicinity of them is good, too.
      - ty6853 2y ago
        Milton Friedman painstakingly designed the income tax withholding precisely to facilitate increased spending. Given his great body of works and actual experience in implementation, I don't think his opinions are brushed away by your strawman fight about what frugality was said to be . He advocated for eliminating automatic withholding because he saw exactly how it manufactured assent for spending [0], an effect of his own mechanisms he helped design for the circa WW2 war era. https://archive.org/details/twoluckypeopleme00frie https://archive.org/details/twoluckypeopleme00frie
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
Meow meow meow

computerthings 2y ago

Now this is interesting.. when this had 17 votes in 17 minutes I was like "yeah this is gonna get flagged" so I left it open in a tab. Now I see it's not flagged, yet I can't find it on the first 20 pages of the front page, either.

jppope 2y ago
I went looking and you are correct. Super interesting. It appears there's some auto mod feature or something?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- rl3 2y ago
  It's nothing new; happens frequently. My guess is it's a compromise between a hard flag kill that silences all discussion, and letting the submission continue trending.
rl3 2y ago
Good. The discussion quickly became the 2025 version of this, everyone proceeding to argue with him: https://thehardtimes.net/blog/why-i-quit-my-job-and-left-my-wife-to-defend-elon-musk-online-full-time/ https://thehardtimes.net/blog/why-i-quit-my-job-and-left-my-...
- computerthings 2y ago
  Good what? I wasn't complaining that shit gets memory holed here, I observed something I had never seen before. The discussion seems generally really informative, it's mostly the people who don't want the topic discussed who are shit at discussing it. It's a skill issue.
  - bloomingkales 2y ago
    Annmnnnnnd we’re flagged.