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There's a simple mathematical or logical concept that solves the problem: For absolute value of differences between X and Y, there is no difference between an a

by mmooss 2y ago

There's a simple mathematical or logical concept that solves the problem: For absolute value of differences between X and Y, there is no difference between an advantage or a disadvantage. The formula for people who care about 'liberty and justice for all' is to say, 'we agree about eliminating racial or other biases in hiring and promotion' and then also identify and eliminate programs and processes biased in favor of, e.g., white males (the bias varies by situation, of course, but generally - almost by definition - favors the status quo). For example, in college admissions eliminate legacies, wealthy donor's kids, and other things are biased toward white men and women. And then in OpenAI hiring, look beyond elite universities that have biased results, and beyond personal networks that are biased. In internal hiring and programs, eliminate or change those that advantage any groups, not just those that advantage vulnerable groups. Another way of saying the same thing is that the standard hiring practices are DEI / affirmative action for the status quo (usually white males, possibly Asian males in SV) - that's what they always have been. I'm serious. We can all then agree: Eliminate affirmative action and DEI for all. Could civil rights advocates use anti-DEI laws to sue on behalf of vulnerable minorities, saying that hiring practices are DEI for the status quo? Or imagine Congress passing a law requiring merit-based advancement; imagine how that could be used to provide true 'liberty and justice for all.' (I don't know how that would work practically - how it's defined, how enforced, etc. Maybe you just have to quantitatively prove bias.)

TinkersW 2y ago
Your justification for discrimination against white guys is that a very tiny percent of them are legacy admissions and/or from wealthy families? You know the rest of them are not benefiting from that in the slightest? Actually they are probably hurt by it under the current DIE platforms. I agree that it would be great if hiring wasn't so focused on a small group of schools(ie excuses to hire people just like yourself). If DIE is replaced it needs to be with a system based on family income not skin color etc.
- janalsncm 2y ago
  No, I think they meant that removing legacy admissions will result in fewer white guys getting admitted, but that’s ok.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    There is a case for legacy admits - continuity of the culture in a university. The culture of a university is what makes it attractive for the next generation of students.
    - drawkward 2y ago
      Having received degrees from two ivys, and also being part of a legacy that dates back to 1709 at one of those two, i can definitely say that legacy admits dont provide cultural continuity more than the average non legacy student. The cultural transmission gradient is from older to younger students. That said, i support legacies because these private universities at just that--private institutions, and the first amendment gives you the right to associate with whom you wish.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        Your example is interesting. Are you sure your dad didn't impart some culture to you, which you (perhaps unwittingly) brought to the university? I'm not a legacy admit (my admission was denied, the fools!) but my dad definitely imparted some of MIT's culture on me before I left for college.
      - JKCalhoun 2y ago
        I assumed it was the professors/faculty that bring cultural continuity to a school.
        drawkward 2y ago
        Certainly, profs/faculty do being continuity, but I was considering the student experience of the university. (It seemed to me that was what op was asking about with their assumption that said culture was legacy driven) Professors of course contribute to the student culture too, but by no means as much as the students themselves.
- unclebucknasty 2y ago
  >Your justification for discrimination against white guys is that a very tiny percent of them are legacy admissions and/or from wealthy families? "Between 2014 and 2019, Harvard University accepted legacy students at a rate of 33%. This was more than five times the overall acceptance rate of 6% during that period." [0] In 2022, the overall acceptance rate was 3.2%. The legacy acceptance rate was 42%. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences#:~:text=Between%202014%20and%202019%2C%20Harvard,universities%20in%20the%20United%20States. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences#:~:text=B...
- mmooss 2y ago
  > discrimination against white guys Where did I say anything like that? Please quote it - I could have miscommunicated.
janalsncm 2y ago
> Could civil rights advocates use anti-DEI laws to sue on behalf of vulnerable minorities I am with you that morally you can either say that discrimination on the basis of protected characteristics is either always wrong or not always wrong. I also tend to believe that wealth is now a more salient determinant of social outcome than race, and using race as a proxy for class is a missed opportunity. On the narrow point you brought up, though, DEI discrimination isn’t commutative. It explicitly discriminates against the majority group. Of course, where the sausage gets made is what groups are selected against and how they are defined.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > I also tend to believe that wealth is now a more salient determinant of social outcome than race, and using race as a proxy for class is a missed opportunity. People make all kinds of arguments and we can chase our tails forever, which is why they are pointless without evidence. There are mountains of evidence of discrimination based on race. And now the current US administration and many in the GOP openly embrace many white nationalists and their claims, including replacement theory, etc. > DEI discrimination isn’t commutative. It explicitly discriminates against the majority group There is far more discrimination in favor of the majority group. The point of DEI was to address that, but there are other strategies. Do you want discrimination or not?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by mmooss 2y ago

TinkersW 2y ago

Your justification for discrimination against white guys is that a very tiny percent of them are legacy admissions and/or from wealthy families? You know the rest of them are not benefiting from that in the slightest? Actually they are probably hurt by it under the current DIE platforms. I agree that it would be great if hiring wasn't so focused on a small group of schools(ie excuses to hire people just like yourself). If DIE is replaced it needs to be with a system based on family income not skin color etc.

janalsncm 2y ago
No, I think they meant that removing legacy admissions will result in fewer white guys getting admitted, but that’s ok.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  There is a case for legacy admits - continuity of the culture in a university. The culture of a university is what makes it attractive for the next generation of students.
  - drawkward 2y ago
    Having received degrees from two ivys, and also being part of a legacy that dates back to 1709 at one of those two, i can definitely say that legacy admits dont provide cultural continuity more than the average non legacy student. The cultural transmission gradient is from older to younger students. That said, i support legacies because these private universities at just that--private institutions, and the first amendment gives you the right to associate with whom you wish.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      Your example is interesting. Are you sure your dad didn't impart some culture to you, which you (perhaps unwittingly) brought to the university? I'm not a legacy admit (my admission was denied, the fools!) but my dad definitely imparted some of MIT's culture on me before I left for college.
    - JKCalhoun 2y ago
      I assumed it was the professors/faculty that bring cultural continuity to a school.
      - drawkward 2y ago
        Certainly, profs/faculty do being continuity, but I was considering the student experience of the university. (It seemed to me that was what op was asking about with their assumption that said culture was legacy driven) Professors of course contribute to the student culture too, but by no means as much as the students themselves.
unclebucknasty 2y ago
>Your justification for discrimination against white guys is that a very tiny percent of them are legacy admissions and/or from wealthy families? "Between 2014 and 2019, Harvard University accepted legacy students at a rate of 33%. This was more than five times the overall acceptance rate of 6% during that period." [0] In 2022, the overall acceptance rate was 3.2%. The legacy acceptance rate was 42%. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences#:~:text=Between%202014%20and%202019%2C%20Harvard,universities%20in%20the%20United%20States. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences#:~:text=B...
mmooss 2y ago
> discrimination against white guys Where did I say anything like that? Please quote it - I could have miscommunicated.

janalsncm 2y ago

> Could civil rights advocates use anti-DEI laws to sue on behalf of vulnerable minorities I am with you that morally you can either say that discrimination on the basis of protected characteristics is either always wrong or not always wrong. I also tend to believe that wealth is now a more salient determinant of social outcome than race, and using race as a proxy for class is a missed opportunity. On the narrow point you brought up, though, DEI discrimination isn’t commutative. It explicitly discriminates against the majority group. Of course, where the sausage gets made is what groups are selected against and how they are defined.

mmooss 2y ago
> I also tend to believe that wealth is now a more salient determinant of social outcome than race, and using race as a proxy for class is a missed opportunity. People make all kinds of arguments and we can chase our tails forever, which is why they are pointless without evidence. There are mountains of evidence of discrimination based on race. And now the current US administration and many in the GOP openly embrace many white nationalists and their claims, including replacement theory, etc. > DEI discrimination isn’t commutative. It explicitly discriminates against the majority group There is far more discrimination in favor of the majority group. The point of DEI was to address that, but there are other strategies. Do you want discrimination or not?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]