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Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of l

Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of leverage over them?

KPGv2 2y ago
Because this is ostensibly illegal, and it would be nice if someone enforced the fucking law (H1Bs must be paid the market rate, and it's supposed to be enforced by the Department of Labor). But the entirety of US government apparati are geared toward helping big corps make money. It's just a question of which big corps (modern Democratic party is soooo captured by Big Tech). Of course, one of them also supports fascism; I'm not "both sides"ing.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  President Musk specifically said he wants to focus on getting more H1-B visa holders in the US https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-visa-maga-immigration-what-to-know/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-vi...
  - KPGv2 2y ago
    I'm not surprised the richest man in the world will commit all manner of sin, because one more dollar might be the one to fill that gaping hole where his heart should be.
    - aaronblohowiak 2y ago
      This doesn’t contribute to the discussion
      - oneplane 2y ago
        Sure it does, wealth hoarding is a significant factor in students enrolling in doctoral degrees. Be it because it is a step towards more wealth, or because it's not (and as such a group that might be a good fit, but prefer more wealth over deeper education will no longer enrol). Combine that with very visible people actively promoting that, or representing that, you get yourself a discussion about knowledge, money, and capitalism. And if you dig deep enough you get current affairs and later on, philosophy involved as well. If you were to remove all incentives on "get educated so you get paid more" and only focus on "get educated so you'll enjoy what you learn more" that might change the enrolment, but as a side-effect, it might also make it harder to find enough people for all manner of work. Going down this thought a bit more, how much is enough? (money, knowledge) Is there such a thing as a goal or limit? Or better yet, is there a fixed quantity where it's all turned into a zero-sum game? Probably not. So if someone will put effort in their hoard, would it then be good or bad for society at large? And either way, would such a person do it regardless of the side-effects on everyone else? Even if it has an outsized impact? Would we then not want to talk about someone with a big hoard trying to add a relatively small amount to that hoard at a cost that might be relatively big for everyone else?
        WalterBright 2y ago
        If you read a biography of Musk, you'll find that he did not hoard wealth. At each step in his rise, he bet essentially all of his fortune on the next step. After all, investing in Tesla was not a sane business decision. Nobody had ever started a successful car company in America since the 1920s or so. Bricklin, Tucker, Delorean, the path is littered with utter failure. Neither was investing in rockets. At one point, he was down to bankruptcy if one more rocket exploded. What car executive would be crazy enough to bet it all on reusable rockets?
        oneplane 2y ago
        Reading a biography mostly informed me about the lack of general empathy, remorse, sympathy. Only regret came forward a little (and only once). > be crazy enough to bet it all Anyone who doesn't suffer any real consequences. Having parents with a lot of money makes it not matter all that much. As for the other bad decisions; it doesn't really show much positive except maybe persistence, but persistence in a vacuum is not a good thing. In a way, it mostly read like "a skewed mind made a bunch of bets and got lucky". Perhaps mostly an example of survivorship bias in a business sense. Now, if we go back to the hoarding; it's not about when someone didn't hoard, it's about the here and now. I'm pretty sure we can find a period of time where Gates or Kamprad didn't do any hoarding, or not the hoarding we'd expect. But concentration of anything doesn't really happen by accident, and wherever we see it now, we can assume it was intentional. There are of course also examples of people on their death bed realising their hoard doesn't really matter anymore and they might give most or all of it away. But that doesn't mean the hoarding never happened. It doesn't turn someone into a genius or a saint. When such things happen, we might consider it commendable, but that doesn't mean history disappears. In a way it works not like a balance or a sum but more like a ratchet; it's about the degree to which someone hoarded stuff and how they acted with their hoard (doesn't have to be money, can be property or secrets or power or knowledge etc).
        WalterBright 2y ago
        Musk used his "hoard" to revolutionize the car industry, then the rocket industry, then the communications industry, etc. Did you know he gave away free Starlink to victims of hurricane Helena and the LA fires? When FEMA did nothing? He's also going to rescue the astronauts abandoned in space. My gawd, Elon is pure eeevil!!
- alfiedotwtf 2y ago
  > ostensibly illegal I think we’re at the “so what are you going to do about it” phase where the courts and congress are going to tisk tisk at the most, because they don’t want the deep pockets of Elon and Co to primary-them-out
- sweeter 2y ago
  We are so cooked. I don't see a clear pathway out of this. I fear we've crossed the Rubicon and people will choose willful ignorance or the people who believe they stand to benefit will silently stand by. After decades of Neo-Liberal austerity measures, the rise of fascism is inevitable.
- arghnoname 2y ago
  On H1B, its abuses, and big tech capture in general, it's a shame we can't generally admit that the democrats are terrible on this without others perceiving this as an endorsement of everything the other side wants to do. Both major parties suck really bad here. I'm not partisan anymore, I'll vote split-ticket for whatever individual best represents my individual interests because if I'm going to exercise my apparently useless vote, I might as well use it to meekly voice my preferences in the extremely remote chance someone will decide pretending to give a shit would be helpful for them. Our problems predate the current regime and they'll last past it. Pretty pessimistic if I'm honest.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  it's only illegal if it's enforced, which it isn't
snailmailstare 2y ago
My impression is that there are prized PhD jobs that people go back to school in anticipation of and there are essentially non-PhD jobs that are filled by people who don't go back or H1B workers who have a PhD.
cute_boi 2y ago
These days it is like why even hire H1B's when they can simply outsource the talent? Even companies like American Airlines are opening big offices in India etc...
datavirtue 2y ago
If you haven't noticed, people are forgoing the H1B and just remoting them in for $40k.
fishcrackers 2y ago
[dead]

Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of leverage over them?

KPGv2 2y ago

Because this is ostensibly illegal, and it would be nice if someone enforced the fucking law (H1Bs must be paid the market rate, and it's supposed to be enforced by the Department of Labor). But the entirety of US government apparati are geared toward helping big corps make money. It's just a question of which big corps (modern Democratic party is soooo captured by Big Tech). Of course, one of them also supports fascism; I'm not "both sides"ing.

scarface_74 2y ago
President Musk specifically said he wants to focus on getting more H1-B visa holders in the US https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-visa-maga-immigration-what-to-know/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-vi...
- KPGv2 2y ago
  I'm not surprised the richest man in the world will commit all manner of sin, because one more dollar might be the one to fill that gaping hole where his heart should be.
  - aaronblohowiak 2y ago
    This doesn’t contribute to the discussion
    - oneplane 2y ago
      Sure it does, wealth hoarding is a significant factor in students enrolling in doctoral degrees. Be it because it is a step towards more wealth, or because it's not (and as such a group that might be a good fit, but prefer more wealth over deeper education will no longer enrol). Combine that with very visible people actively promoting that, or representing that, you get yourself a discussion about knowledge, money, and capitalism. And if you dig deep enough you get current affairs and later on, philosophy involved as well. If you were to remove all incentives on "get educated so you get paid more" and only focus on "get educated so you'll enjoy what you learn more" that might change the enrolment, but as a side-effect, it might also make it harder to find enough people for all manner of work. Going down this thought a bit more, how much is enough? (money, knowledge) Is there such a thing as a goal or limit? Or better yet, is there a fixed quantity where it's all turned into a zero-sum game? Probably not. So if someone will put effort in their hoard, would it then be good or bad for society at large? And either way, would such a person do it regardless of the side-effects on everyone else? Even if it has an outsized impact? Would we then not want to talk about someone with a big hoard trying to add a relatively small amount to that hoard at a cost that might be relatively big for everyone else?
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        If you read a biography of Musk, you'll find that he did not hoard wealth. At each step in his rise, he bet essentially all of his fortune on the next step. After all, investing in Tesla was not a sane business decision. Nobody had ever started a successful car company in America since the 1920s or so. Bricklin, Tucker, Delorean, the path is littered with utter failure. Neither was investing in rockets. At one point, he was down to bankruptcy if one more rocket exploded. What car executive would be crazy enough to bet it all on reusable rockets?
        oneplane 2y ago
        Reading a biography mostly informed me about the lack of general empathy, remorse, sympathy. Only regret came forward a little (and only once). > be crazy enough to bet it all Anyone who doesn't suffer any real consequences. Having parents with a lot of money makes it not matter all that much. As for the other bad decisions; it doesn't really show much positive except maybe persistence, but persistence in a vacuum is not a good thing. In a way, it mostly read like "a skewed mind made a bunch of bets and got lucky". Perhaps mostly an example of survivorship bias in a business sense. Now, if we go back to the hoarding; it's not about when someone didn't hoard, it's about the here and now. I'm pretty sure we can find a period of time where Gates or Kamprad didn't do any hoarding, or not the hoarding we'd expect. But concentration of anything doesn't really happen by accident, and wherever we see it now, we can assume it was intentional. There are of course also examples of people on their death bed realising their hoard doesn't really matter anymore and they might give most or all of it away. But that doesn't mean the hoarding never happened. It doesn't turn someone into a genius or a saint. When such things happen, we might consider it commendable, but that doesn't mean history disappears. In a way it works not like a balance or a sum but more like a ratchet; it's about the degree to which someone hoarded stuff and how they acted with their hoard (doesn't have to be money, can be property or secrets or power or knowledge etc).
        WalterBright 2y ago
        Musk used his "hoard" to revolutionize the car industry, then the rocket industry, then the communications industry, etc. Did you know he gave away free Starlink to victims of hurricane Helena and the LA fires? When FEMA did nothing? He's also going to rescue the astronauts abandoned in space. My gawd, Elon is pure eeevil!!
alfiedotwtf 2y ago
> ostensibly illegal I think we’re at the “so what are you going to do about it” phase where the courts and congress are going to tisk tisk at the most, because they don’t want the deep pockets of Elon and Co to primary-them-out
sweeter 2y ago
We are so cooked. I don't see a clear pathway out of this. I fear we've crossed the Rubicon and people will choose willful ignorance or the people who believe they stand to benefit will silently stand by. After decades of Neo-Liberal austerity measures, the rise of fascism is inevitable.
arghnoname 2y ago
On H1B, its abuses, and big tech capture in general, it's a shame we can't generally admit that the democrats are terrible on this without others perceiving this as an endorsement of everything the other side wants to do. Both major parties suck really bad here. I'm not partisan anymore, I'll vote split-ticket for whatever individual best represents my individual interests because if I'm going to exercise my apparently useless vote, I might as well use it to meekly voice my preferences in the extremely remote chance someone will decide pretending to give a shit would be helpful for them. Our problems predate the current regime and they'll last past it. Pretty pessimistic if I'm honest.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
it's only illegal if it's enforced, which it isn't

snailmailstare 2y ago

My impression is that there are prized PhD jobs that people go back to school in anticipation of and there are essentially non-PhD jobs that are filled by people who don't go back or H1B workers who have a PhD.

cute_boi 2y ago

These days it is like why even hire H1B's when they can simply outsource the talent? Even companies like American Airlines are opening big offices in India etc...

datavirtue 2y ago

If you haven't noticed, people are forgoing the H1B and just remoting them in for $40k.

fishcrackers 2y ago

[dead]