3 ms·

True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? If one goes to a lesser-known university that has a PhD program and does related research are they getting an i

True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? If one goes to a lesser-known university that has a PhD program and does related research are they getting an interview, or are these research jobs intended for specific university pipelines (Harvard, MIT, the usuals, etc.)?

b3ing 2y ago
Exactly, they will be H-1B visa worker over someone with a PHD from a non-Ivy League/non-big-name college
davidgay 2y ago
The interview process for a place like Microsoft Research is essentially the same as for a faculty position - give a talk on your research, spend the day talking to researchers about your research, their research, convince them you have an interesting research agenda. Have dinner with more researchers, for a notionally more relaxed discussion :) [Tried, failed ;)] As with university recruitment, this isn't a case of "you must come from specific pipelines", but of "you must have done interesting research, have an interesting plan". It's just that those two criteria are strongly correlated...
- grandempire 2y ago
  You’re forgetting the part where the interview is just a formality and sanity check. They have to recognize you or your advisors name.
arghnoname 2y ago
I have a CS PhD from a good (but not top 5) program and have published in top venues. I perceived my chances of getting a job at Microsoft Research (MSR) to be low (on par with getting a faculty position at a top place) and didn't feel like going through the unpleasant prospect of coming up with job talks and slides, sending off to universities while I'm at it, writing diversity statements, etc, for fairly low chances at getting something at MSR. I could have gotten something at a 'lesser' place, but my guess is they'd be even more likely to be disrupted by budget cuts. Even getting one of these roles though leaves you in a position where the next guy who wants to save money can just axe the whole division and then you're on your ass and due to a general paucity of research roles and high competition, this can be very, very bad. I went bog-standard industry and the PhD probably didn't help much there. My industry job largely wastes my training and research experience. In retrospect, I was foolish to get a PhD and people choosing to not do so are generally making the right choice.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > then you're on your ass My understanding from PhDs in the research business at major companies is that once you're in the club, it's a lot easier to get a position at another one. (No, not me, I don't have a PhD.)
  - mjh2539 2y ago
    I have anecdata that shows that plenty of intelligent, highly motivated, affable people with (hard science) PhDs still struggle to obtain employment of the "club" caliber, even after they're in the "club".
  - arghnoname 2y ago
    You'd want to keep your network alive. Publish, be on program committees doing reviews, etc. If the number of jobs is fairly static and you're doing this and your area doesn't collapse, (e.g., the AI winter), your network can probably land you okay. Networks in the academic world is a pretty big deal and it's a small world. Some people like doing this kind of 'service,' I wasn't one of them. If there are general headwinds (i.e., research spending in general drops, which seems to have been an ongoing trend), there is almost definitionally more people getting cast off than there are actual researcher roles, not including new entrants to the market. As with all things, the better off you do (very high quality lab, for instance), the more places you have to try to grab onto if you get cast off. My peers from grad school have gone every which route, industrial labs, academia, more applied research-lite positions, finance, and fairly direct software engineering jobs. A decent chunk that started in academia or at labs have migrated into more standard software engineering roles. Personally, I really miss research, but it is what it is.
WalterBright 2y ago
> True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? Personally knowing a couple PhDs who did the rounds, it is highly competitive.
runeblaze 2y ago
I want to vaguely highlight that they are not that competitive. Headcount is not that great; there is usually a citation/research impact floor; the ivory tower "oh our advisors are friends" thing likely also applies. Research Scientist positions are also embedded in product teams in Google IIRC, certainly less "prestige" than DeepMind though, and probably easier to get into (Also for the broader audience: Harvard here probably carries less weight than the likes of UT Austin)

b3ing 2y ago

Exactly, they will be H-1B visa worker over someone with a PHD from a non-Ivy League/non-big-name college

davidgay 2y ago

The interview process for a place like Microsoft Research is essentially the same as for a faculty position - give a talk on your research, spend the day talking to researchers about your research, their research, convince them you have an interesting research agenda. Have dinner with more researchers, for a notionally more relaxed discussion :) [Tried, failed ;)] As with university recruitment, this isn't a case of "you must come from specific pipelines", but of "you must have done interesting research, have an interesting plan". It's just that those two criteria are strongly correlated...

grandempire 2y ago
You’re forgetting the part where the interview is just a formality and sanity check. They have to recognize you or your advisors name.

arghnoname 2y ago

I have a CS PhD from a good (but not top 5) program and have published in top venues. I perceived my chances of getting a job at Microsoft Research (MSR) to be low (on par with getting a faculty position at a top place) and didn't feel like going through the unpleasant prospect of coming up with job talks and slides, sending off to universities while I'm at it, writing diversity statements, etc, for fairly low chances at getting something at MSR. I could have gotten something at a 'lesser' place, but my guess is they'd be even more likely to be disrupted by budget cuts. Even getting one of these roles though leaves you in a position where the next guy who wants to save money can just axe the whole division and then you're on your ass and due to a general paucity of research roles and high competition, this can be very, very bad. I went bog-standard industry and the PhD probably didn't help much there. My industry job largely wastes my training and research experience. In retrospect, I was foolish to get a PhD and people choosing to not do so are generally making the right choice.

WalterBright 2y ago
> then you're on your ass My understanding from PhDs in the research business at major companies is that once you're in the club, it's a lot easier to get a position at another one. (No, not me, I don't have a PhD.)
- mjh2539 2y ago
  I have anecdata that shows that plenty of intelligent, highly motivated, affable people with (hard science) PhDs still struggle to obtain employment of the "club" caliber, even after they're in the "club".
- arghnoname 2y ago
  You'd want to keep your network alive. Publish, be on program committees doing reviews, etc. If the number of jobs is fairly static and you're doing this and your area doesn't collapse, (e.g., the AI winter), your network can probably land you okay. Networks in the academic world is a pretty big deal and it's a small world. Some people like doing this kind of 'service,' I wasn't one of them. If there are general headwinds (i.e., research spending in general drops, which seems to have been an ongoing trend), there is almost definitionally more people getting cast off than there are actual researcher roles, not including new entrants to the market. As with all things, the better off you do (very high quality lab, for instance), the more places you have to try to grab onto if you get cast off. My peers from grad school have gone every which route, industrial labs, academia, more applied research-lite positions, finance, and fairly direct software engineering jobs. A decent chunk that started in academia or at labs have migrated into more standard software engineering roles. Personally, I really miss research, but it is what it is.

WalterBright 2y ago

> True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? Personally knowing a couple PhDs who did the rounds, it is highly competitive.

runeblaze 2y ago

I want to vaguely highlight that they are not that competitive. Headcount is not that great; there is usually a citation/research impact floor; the ivory tower "oh our advisors are friends" thing likely also applies. Research Scientist positions are also embedded in product teams in Google IIRC, certainly less "prestige" than DeepMind though, and probably easier to get into (Also for the broader audience: Harvard here probably carries less weight than the likes of UT Austin)