5 ms·

In STEM in particular the opportunity costs of a PhD are extremely high and with little payoff at the end. Even if you want to stay in academia, which is the on

In STEM in particular the opportunity costs of a PhD are extremely high and with little payoff at the end. Even if you want to stay in academia, which is the only real reason to do a PhD now, there are far more PhDs graduating per year than open faculty positions. Many get stuck in Postdoc or adjunct hell for years and can never get a tenure track role.

WalterBright 2y ago
There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.
- ericmay 2y ago
  True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? If one goes to a lesser-known university that has a PhD program and does related research are they getting an interview, or are these research jobs intended for specific university pipelines (Harvard, MIT, the usuals, etc.)?
  - b3ing 2y ago
    Exactly, they will be H-1B visa worker over someone with a PHD from a non-Ivy League/non-big-name college
  - davidgay 2y ago
    The interview process for a place like Microsoft Research is essentially the same as for a faculty position - give a talk on your research, spend the day talking to researchers about your research, their research, convince them you have an interesting research agenda. Have dinner with more researchers, for a notionally more relaxed discussion :) [Tried, failed ;)] As with university recruitment, this isn't a case of "you must come from specific pipelines", but of "you must have done interesting research, have an interesting plan". It's just that those two criteria are strongly correlated...
    - grandempire 2y ago
      You’re forgetting the part where the interview is just a formality and sanity check. They have to recognize you or your advisors name.
  - arghnoname 2y ago
    I have a CS PhD from a good (but not top 5) program and have published in top venues. I perceived my chances of getting a job at Microsoft Research (MSR) to be low (on par with getting a faculty position at a top place) and didn't feel like going through the unpleasant prospect of coming up with job talks and slides, sending off to universities while I'm at it, writing diversity statements, etc, for fairly low chances at getting something at MSR. I could have gotten something at a 'lesser' place, but my guess is they'd be even more likely to be disrupted by budget cuts. Even getting one of these roles though leaves you in a position where the next guy who wants to save money can just axe the whole division and then you're on your ass and due to a general paucity of research roles and high competition, this can be very, very bad. I went bog-standard industry and the PhD probably didn't help much there. My industry job largely wastes my training and research experience. In retrospect, I was foolish to get a PhD and people choosing to not do so are generally making the right choice.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      > then you're on your ass My understanding from PhDs in the research business at major companies is that once you're in the club, it's a lot easier to get a position at another one. (No, not me, I don't have a PhD.)
      - mjh2539 2y ago
        I have anecdata that shows that plenty of intelligent, highly motivated, affable people with (hard science) PhDs still struggle to obtain employment of the "club" caliber, even after they're in the "club".
      - arghnoname 2y ago
        You'd want to keep your network alive. Publish, be on program committees doing reviews, etc. If the number of jobs is fairly static and you're doing this and your area doesn't collapse, (e.g., the AI winter), your network can probably land you okay. Networks in the academic world is a pretty big deal and it's a small world. Some people like doing this kind of 'service,' I wasn't one of them. If there are general headwinds (i.e., research spending in general drops, which seems to have been an ongoing trend), there is almost definitionally more people getting cast off than there are actual researcher roles, not including new entrants to the market. As with all things, the better off you do (very high quality lab, for instance), the more places you have to try to grab onto if you get cast off. My peers from grad school have gone every which route, industrial labs, academia, more applied research-lite positions, finance, and fairly direct software engineering jobs. A decent chunk that started in academia or at labs have migrated into more standard software engineering roles. Personally, I really miss research, but it is what it is.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? Personally knowing a couple PhDs who did the rounds, it is highly competitive.
  - runeblaze 2y ago
    I want to vaguely highlight that they are not that competitive. Headcount is not that great; there is usually a citation/research impact floor; the ivory tower "oh our advisors are friends" thing likely also applies. Research Scientist positions are also embedded in product teams in Google IIRC, certainly less "prestige" than DeepMind though, and probably easier to get into (Also for the broader audience: Harvard here probably carries less weight than the likes of UT Austin)
- ridiculous_leke 2y ago
  Can't say for certain if they will be around 4-5 years down the line.
  - checker659 2y ago
    If anything, they're the jobs more likely to still be around (what those people will be doing is a different matter altogether).
- sweeter 2y ago
  Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of leverage over them?
  - KPGv2 2y ago
    Because this is ostensibly illegal, and it would be nice if someone enforced the fucking law (H1Bs must be paid the market rate, and it's supposed to be enforced by the Department of Labor). But the entirety of US government apparati are geared toward helping big corps make money. It's just a question of which big corps (modern Democratic party is soooo captured by Big Tech). Of course, one of them also supports fascism; I'm not "both sides"ing.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      President Musk specifically said he wants to focus on getting more H1-B visa holders in the US https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-visa-maga-immigration-what-to-know/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-vi...
      - KPGv2 2y ago
        I'm not surprised the richest man in the world will commit all manner of sin, because one more dollar might be the one to fill that gaping hole where his heart should be.
        aaronblohowiak 2y ago
        This doesn’t contribute to the discussion
        oneplane 2y ago
        Sure it does, wealth hoarding is a significant factor in students enrolling in doctoral degrees. Be it because it is a step towards more wealth, or because it's not (and as such a group that might be a good fit, but prefer more wealth over deeper education will no longer enrol). Combine that with very visible people actively promoting that, or representing that, you get yourself a discussion about knowledge, money, and capitalism. And if you dig deep enough you get current affairs and later on, philosophy involved as well. If you were to remove all incentives on "get educated so you get paid more" and only focus on "get educated so you'll enjoy what you learn more" that might change the enrolment, but as a side-effect, it might also make it harder to find enough people for all manner of work. Going down this thought a bit more, how much is enough? (money, knowledge) Is there such a thing as a goal or limit? Or better yet, is there a fixed quantity where it's all turned into a zero-sum game? Probably not. So if someone will put effort in their hoard, would it then be good or bad for society at large? And either way, would such a person do it regardless of the side-effects on everyone else? Even if it has an outsized impact? Would we then not want to talk about someone with a big hoard trying to add a relatively small amount to that hoard at a cost that might be relatively big for everyone else?
- vonneumannstan 2y ago
  This is an incredibly small slice of roles available to CS PHDs and sometimes adjacent fields. Not really indicative of the larger STEM market and basically irrelevant to non STEM programs.
icnexbe7 2y ago
it’s literally a pyramid scheme
- barrenko 2y ago
  It's a luxury consumption good.
magic_man 2y ago
Also it makes getting visa way easier.
avs733 2y ago
Most stem PhDs actually go into industry. In fact, in my department I would say 60% or more go directly to industry and we are a field with growing faculty opportunities. The immediate post graduation employment of all PhDs is very high 74% in 2023 up from 68% in 2018 and the highest since 1993. Interestingly difference between stem and non stem is effectively moot. I continue to be shocked in this thread at the factual statements being thrown around that there is easy data to push back on from the nationally managed survey of earned doctorates.
- vonneumannstan 2y ago
  Whats the ROI vs a Masters for people going directly to Industry? Did they even intend to do that or realized the Academic Door was closed for them and had no other choice?
  - juniperus 2y ago
    Not sure on this, but the type of job you can get in industry differs if you have a Master's or PhD... the difference between being a technician in a lab, and running a research lab, at least in my field. Also somewhat true for federal jobs. There are master's jobs, and PhD jobs. The fields where you are bound to academia for a reasonable ROI are definitely the humanities, since there is essentially no demand for a history PhD in the private sector, or an English PhD. It can help for job hunting in an unrelated field, I guess. But, a chemistry PhD? or any other applied lab PhD, it's not like you're shooting yourself in the foot by getting an advanced degree in such a field.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
this is true of CS, not sure that it's true of STEM in general (engineering, life sciences)

WalterBright 2y ago

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

ericmay 2y ago
True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? If one goes to a lesser-known university that has a PhD program and does related research are they getting an interview, or are these research jobs intended for specific university pipelines (Harvard, MIT, the usuals, etc.)?
- b3ing 2y ago
  Exactly, they will be H-1B visa worker over someone with a PHD from a non-Ivy League/non-big-name college
- davidgay 2y ago
  The interview process for a place like Microsoft Research is essentially the same as for a faculty position - give a talk on your research, spend the day talking to researchers about your research, their research, convince them you have an interesting research agenda. Have dinner with more researchers, for a notionally more relaxed discussion :) [Tried, failed ;)] As with university recruitment, this isn't a case of "you must come from specific pipelines", but of "you must have done interesting research, have an interesting plan". It's just that those two criteria are strongly correlated...
  - grandempire 2y ago
    You’re forgetting the part where the interview is just a formality and sanity check. They have to recognize you or your advisors name.
- arghnoname 2y ago
  I have a CS PhD from a good (but not top 5) program and have published in top venues. I perceived my chances of getting a job at Microsoft Research (MSR) to be low (on par with getting a faculty position at a top place) and didn't feel like going through the unpleasant prospect of coming up with job talks and slides, sending off to universities while I'm at it, writing diversity statements, etc, for fairly low chances at getting something at MSR. I could have gotten something at a 'lesser' place, but my guess is they'd be even more likely to be disrupted by budget cuts. Even getting one of these roles though leaves you in a position where the next guy who wants to save money can just axe the whole division and then you're on your ass and due to a general paucity of research roles and high competition, this can be very, very bad. I went bog-standard industry and the PhD probably didn't help much there. My industry job largely wastes my training and research experience. In retrospect, I was foolish to get a PhD and people choosing to not do so are generally making the right choice.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > then you're on your ass My understanding from PhDs in the research business at major companies is that once you're in the club, it's a lot easier to get a position at another one. (No, not me, I don't have a PhD.)
    - mjh2539 2y ago
      I have anecdata that shows that plenty of intelligent, highly motivated, affable people with (hard science) PhDs still struggle to obtain employment of the "club" caliber, even after they're in the "club".
    - arghnoname 2y ago
      You'd want to keep your network alive. Publish, be on program committees doing reviews, etc. If the number of jobs is fairly static and you're doing this and your area doesn't collapse, (e.g., the AI winter), your network can probably land you okay. Networks in the academic world is a pretty big deal and it's a small world. Some people like doing this kind of 'service,' I wasn't one of them. If there are general headwinds (i.e., research spending in general drops, which seems to have been an ongoing trend), there is almost definitionally more people getting cast off than there are actual researcher roles, not including new entrants to the market. As with all things, the better off you do (very high quality lab, for instance), the more places you have to try to grab onto if you get cast off. My peers from grad school have gone every which route, industrial labs, academia, more applied research-lite positions, finance, and fairly direct software engineering jobs. A decent chunk that started in academia or at labs have migrated into more standard software engineering roles. Personally, I really miss research, but it is what it is.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? Personally knowing a couple PhDs who did the rounds, it is highly competitive.
- runeblaze 2y ago
  I want to vaguely highlight that they are not that competitive. Headcount is not that great; there is usually a citation/research impact floor; the ivory tower "oh our advisors are friends" thing likely also applies. Research Scientist positions are also embedded in product teams in Google IIRC, certainly less "prestige" than DeepMind though, and probably easier to get into (Also for the broader audience: Harvard here probably carries less weight than the likes of UT Austin)
ridiculous_leke 2y ago
Can't say for certain if they will be around 4-5 years down the line.
- checker659 2y ago
  If anything, they're the jobs more likely to still be around (what those people will be doing is a different matter altogether).
sweeter 2y ago
Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of leverage over them?
- KPGv2 2y ago
  Because this is ostensibly illegal, and it would be nice if someone enforced the fucking law (H1Bs must be paid the market rate, and it's supposed to be enforced by the Department of Labor). But the entirety of US government apparati are geared toward helping big corps make money. It's just a question of which big corps (modern Democratic party is soooo captured by Big Tech). Of course, one of them also supports fascism; I'm not "both sides"ing.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    President Musk specifically said he wants to focus on getting more H1-B visa holders in the US https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-visa-maga-immigration-what-to-know/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-vi...
    - KPGv2 2y ago
      I'm not surprised the richest man in the world will commit all manner of sin, because one more dollar might be the one to fill that gaping hole where his heart should be.
      - aaronblohowiak 2y ago
        This doesn’t contribute to the discussion
        oneplane 2y ago
        Sure it does, wealth hoarding is a significant factor in students enrolling in doctoral degrees. Be it because it is a step towards more wealth, or because it's not (and as such a group that might be a good fit, but prefer more wealth over deeper education will no longer enrol). Combine that with very visible people actively promoting that, or representing that, you get yourself a discussion about knowledge, money, and capitalism. And if you dig deep enough you get current affairs and later on, philosophy involved as well. If you were to remove all incentives on "get educated so you get paid more" and only focus on "get educated so you'll enjoy what you learn more" that might change the enrolment, but as a side-effect, it might also make it harder to find enough people for all manner of work. Going down this thought a bit more, how much is enough? (money, knowledge) Is there such a thing as a goal or limit? Or better yet, is there a fixed quantity where it's all turned into a zero-sum game? Probably not. So if someone will put effort in their hoard, would it then be good or bad for society at large? And either way, would such a person do it regardless of the side-effects on everyone else? Even if it has an outsized impact? Would we then not want to talk about someone with a big hoard trying to add a relatively small amount to that hoard at a cost that might be relatively big for everyone else?
vonneumannstan 2y ago
This is an incredibly small slice of roles available to CS PHDs and sometimes adjacent fields. Not really indicative of the larger STEM market and basically irrelevant to non STEM programs.

icnexbe7 2y ago

it’s literally a pyramid scheme

barrenko 2y ago
It's a luxury consumption good.

magic_man 2y ago

Also it makes getting visa way easier.

avs733 2y ago

Most stem PhDs actually go into industry. In fact, in my department I would say 60% or more go directly to industry and we are a field with growing faculty opportunities. The immediate post graduation employment of all PhDs is very high 74% in 2023 up from 68% in 2018 and the highest since 1993. Interestingly difference between stem and non stem is effectively moot. I continue to be shocked in this thread at the factual statements being thrown around that there is easy data to push back on from the nationally managed survey of earned doctorates.

vonneumannstan 2y ago
Whats the ROI vs a Masters for people going directly to Industry? Did they even intend to do that or realized the Academic Door was closed for them and had no other choice?
- juniperus 2y ago
  Not sure on this, but the type of job you can get in industry differs if you have a Master's or PhD... the difference between being a technician in a lab, and running a research lab, at least in my field. Also somewhat true for federal jobs. There are master's jobs, and PhD jobs. The fields where you are bound to academia for a reasonable ROI are definitely the humanities, since there is essentially no demand for a history PhD in the private sector, or an English PhD. It can help for job hunting in an unrelated field, I guess. But, a chemistry PhD? or any other applied lab PhD, it's not like you're shooting yourself in the foot by getting an advanced degree in such a field.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

this is true of CS, not sure that it's true of STEM in general (engineering, life sciences)