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> Perhaps the permitted flight paths were too close together? My understanding is that the helicopter was military and didn't need to submit a flight plan. The

> Perhaps the permitted flight paths were too close together? My understanding is that the helicopter was military and didn't need to submit a flight plan. They get to fly where ever they want

WillPostForFood 2y ago
There is a difference between not needing to submit a flight plan, and flying wherever they want. They absolutely have rules to follow about where they fly.
atommclain 2y ago
> They get to fly where ever they want Reminds me of the story of the Navy ship and lighthouse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_ur...
gosub100 2y ago
I'm sure in a national defense scenario they have ways to "pull rank" and do what they need to do. But this would require a good reason. Like a VIP was on board and someone was attacking them.
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  In that scenario civilian aircraft are all grounded.
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    This is the thing people don't understand. Certain military and government aircraft can pull this kind of crap even when it doesn't seem necessary. (At least not to me as an outsider). Now it's easy to say, "Well, Bilbo0s, who are you to say it wasn't necessary?" That's true, but it's an argument that's closed onto itself. We can't probe any further 'cuz "National Security". So this unimaginably dangerous practice of allowing military and government pilots to do this sort of thing "if necessary" continues. We need to, at minimum, have a discussion about why the practice is necessary?
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  It's very easy to pull rank. When Air Force One flies into an airport they have the airport and airspace closed. There's also no need to because current procedures already covers this. All the aircraft would have to do is declare an emergency and they get to go and land wherever they want.
NelsonMinar 2y ago
Your understanding is incorrect, this isn't how airspace works.
throw0101c 2y ago
> They get to fly where ever they want In controlled airspace aircraft fly where they are told to fly by controllers: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_airspace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_airspace
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  Well, except for VIP helos. Basically certain military and government aircraft can do things other pilots can't. I can guarantee you, if I were flying the helo, the transcript between myself and ATC would be significantly different. When you're certain military and government pilots, it's basically, "Um, sir, I don't mean to disturb you, but are you certain you have visual?". The real issue is allowing certain military and government aircraft to essentially do whatever they like. I understand the whole "National Security" thing, but, I mean, maybe we can at least talk about the practice? It's not a practice that seems unsafe. It's a practice that is unsafe.
  - kayodelycaon 2y ago
    I highly doubt this. US Air Force fighters intercepting an unknown aircraft near the Whitehouse still request ATC clearance so they don't accidentally run into an airliner. And we're talking something that shoots missiles into other planes. Any VIP transport isn't going to get any higher priority. Here's why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 And they don't need priority. If Air Force One wants to land anywhere, they simply have the airport closed and the airspace cleared. And you don't need to close an entire airport. You can just mark off a place in the sky that's restricted during a certain time. Additionally, any plane can declare an emergency and take priority over all other traffic, including anything military, including Air Force One. It would be silly if you think you are so important that an airplane currently in the middle of crashing will go around you. You can verify all of this by listening to ATC transcripts on YouTube. They are pretty easy to find if you're looking for sources.
    - bilbo0s 2y ago
sowbug 2y ago
A flight plan doesn't have much to do with permission to fly somewhere. It's more about ATC not being surprised if an aircraft shows up in a given airspace, and search & rescue noticing if an aircraft doesn't show up at its planned destination. All aircraft have separation and avoidance rules that apply at all times.
kayodelycaon 2y ago
Anyone flying under visual flight rules does not need to submit a flight plan. If you never enter controlled airspace, you don't have to talk to ATC at all.

> Perhaps the permitted flight paths were too close together? My understanding is that the helicopter was military and didn't need to submit a flight plan. They get to fly where ever they want

WillPostForFood 2y ago

There is a difference between not needing to submit a flight plan, and flying wherever they want. They absolutely have rules to follow about where they fly.

atommclain 2y ago

> They get to fly where ever they want Reminds me of the story of the Navy ship and lighthouse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_ur...

gosub100 2y ago

I'm sure in a national defense scenario they have ways to "pull rank" and do what they need to do. But this would require a good reason. Like a VIP was on board and someone was attacking them.

jcgrillo 2y ago
In that scenario civilian aircraft are all grounded.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  This is the thing people don't understand. Certain military and government aircraft can pull this kind of crap even when it doesn't seem necessary. (At least not to me as an outsider). Now it's easy to say, "Well, Bilbo0s, who are you to say it wasn't necessary?" That's true, but it's an argument that's closed onto itself. We can't probe any further 'cuz "National Security". So this unimaginably dangerous practice of allowing military and government pilots to do this sort of thing "if necessary" continues. We need to, at minimum, have a discussion about why the practice is necessary?
kayodelycaon 2y ago
It's very easy to pull rank. When Air Force One flies into an airport they have the airport and airspace closed. There's also no need to because current procedures already covers this. All the aircraft would have to do is declare an emergency and they get to go and land wherever they want.

NelsonMinar 2y ago

Your understanding is incorrect, this isn't how airspace works.

throw0101c 2y ago

> They get to fly where ever they want In controlled airspace aircraft fly where they are told to fly by controllers: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_airspace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_airspace

bilbo0s 2y ago
Well, except for VIP helos. Basically certain military and government aircraft can do things other pilots can't. I can guarantee you, if I were flying the helo, the transcript between myself and ATC would be significantly different. When you're certain military and government pilots, it's basically, "Um, sir, I don't mean to disturb you, but are you certain you have visual?". The real issue is allowing certain military and government aircraft to essentially do whatever they like. I understand the whole "National Security" thing, but, I mean, maybe we can at least talk about the practice? It's not a practice that seems unsafe. It's a practice that is unsafe.
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  I highly doubt this. US Air Force fighters intercepting an unknown aircraft near the Whitehouse still request ATC clearance so they don't accidentally run into an airliner. And we're talking something that shoots missiles into other planes. Any VIP transport isn't going to get any higher priority. Here's why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 And they don't need priority. If Air Force One wants to land anywhere, they simply have the airport closed and the airspace cleared. And you don't need to close an entire airport. You can just mark off a place in the sky that's restricted during a certain time. Additionally, any plane can declare an emergency and take priority over all other traffic, including anything military, including Air Force One. It would be silly if you think you are so important that an airplane currently in the middle of crashing will go around you. You can verify all of this by listening to ATC transcripts on YouTube. They are pretty easy to find if you're looking for sources.
  - bilbo0s 2y ago

sowbug 2y ago

A flight plan doesn't have much to do with permission to fly somewhere. It's more about ATC not being surprised if an aircraft shows up in a given airspace, and search & rescue noticing if an aircraft doesn't show up at its planned destination. All aircraft have separation and avoidance rules that apply at all times.

kayodelycaon 2y ago

Anyone flying under visual flight rules does not need to submit a flight plan. If you never enter controlled airspace, you don't have to talk to ATC at all.