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Move Over Meteor: Derby Is The Other High Speed Node.js Framework In Town
- voxx 14y agoThere's a small, but critical difference. There's 11 million dollars on Meteors side.
- mibbitier 14y agoMoney doesn't mean quality. Often it means the reverse.
- voxx 14y agoYou're right, money is totally worthless. How silly of me.
- lvh 14y agoHe's not making the argument that money is worthless. He's making the argument that funding doesn't imply technical excellence. Perhaps as a corollary: technical excellence doesn't even imply funding or any other form of financial success (but it sure helps).
- voxx 14y agoHey, if you're stupid enough to use Derby over Meteor, I have absolutely no right and more importantly, no obligation to help you make the better choice. Everyone has a right to be fucking stupid.
- pestaa 14y agoI'm sorry to downvote, but your comment is rude and doesn't reply to the parent at all. This is not how discussions are made on this site. Enjoy Meteor and have a nice day.
- voxx 14y agoWell, if I happen to care, I will notify you with much haste. I'll discuss how I want.
- mibbitier 14y agoI'm pretty sure that Windows has had a lot more money poured into it than Linux has. But I'll stick with Linux thanks.
- voxx 14y agoWell, develop a program for Linux, and then for Windows. The Windows one will net you more. I'm a Linux dev as well, but I know how things are, I'm not a narrow minded dipshit.
- mibbitier 14y agoThis is not generally how things are done here. You've taken my argument (money!=quality), and decided to counter it with 'you can make more money developing a windows app than a linux app'. Perhaps you should go into politics... Or go back and re-read the thread... perhaps you'll see how badly and incoherently you come across.
- samstave 14y agoYes, but that diff is completely non-technical. So don't discount anything yet...
- sabalaba 14y agoMeteor's team is also more impressive.
- samstave 14y agoWasn't Kevin Rose previously thought to be "more impressive" than reddit's founders... I am not picking a side - i am saying that these are factors which may equate to nothing or everything and it is far too early to call...
- Tichy 14y agoThat money is used to make their business more proficient, not necessarily to make the best framework. It is possible that creating the best framework is one stepping stone to making the business proficient, but it is not a given that they will take that approach.
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- equark 14y agoAs far as I can tell derby has zero story for datastores outside their json racer implementation. There's too much focus on realtime sync in all these frameworks. Even a realtime app like twitter needs complicated relational data. I want a framework that could build github. Derby does get major points for solving the seo and page load issue though.
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- nateps 14y agoIn the future we would like to make it easier to do relational queries, but we plan to continue to use document stores instead of RDBMS's. Document stores are more easy to map to the way that data is represented in JavaScript, and they make it easier to reason about versioned data. Currently we support MongoDB, and we intend to support other similar stores like Redis, Riak, Postgres HSTORE, etc. We just added a lot of functionality to our query system, but it is very much a work in progress. Making it easier to create queries that represent relationships is definitely on our task list.
- andrewvc 14y agoI strongly disagree with this view of document stores as 'easier' to work with. For some tasks, this is undeniably true, but for most business problems I think this is just not the case. The profound irony behind this is that schema-less document stores wind-up being so much less flexible due to them being inherently very denormalized. The good case for document stores is: 1. You have data that really is a blob independent of having relations 2. You need high-performance or map-reduce (Riak, Dynamo, etc.) Those two use cases are really rare in the real world. For most people there's a huge amount of code that leans on RDBMS strengths such as: 1. Integrity constraints 2. Very flexible ad-hoc queries. 3. Decades worth of work on tooling to mitigate rough edges, and solve tough problems that have come up before.
- lukifer 14y agoI like Derby over Meteor, without question. But Derby is still sorely lacking in server-side logic, particularly auth, which is what drove my Derby project to a halt. What non-trivial apps can one build without any private or authenticated data whatsoever? Supposedly these features are coming, and I sincerely hope that derby matures into a real-world tool. The RacerJS tech is amazing, and the library is fun to work with.
- KaoruAoiShiho 14y agoYou can easily implement one of node.js's existing solutions.
- lukifer 14y agoDetails? My understanding is that derby functions are able to run both on the client and the server, and have access to all data. When I last looked at it (it's been almost a year, if not more), there was no way to use Derby's features without being highly promiscuous with data.
- nateps 14y agoThanks for the support! We understand that authentication and authorization are critical, and we have been ironing our issues with them using the app that we are developing as a first test. Pretty much all of the required code is already in master, and an example is forthcoming.
- lukifer 14y agoThanks for replying! Looking forward to seeing the example. :)
- wyck 14y agotechcrunch makes me literally ill.
- orefalo 14y agoHaven't looked at Derby, but after doing my first node steps with Meteor; I quickly figured it was a very rigid platform. What? no npm? So I recently switch to SocketStream. So far so good. I like to be in full control and assemble together the bricks I need.
- dhruvbhatia 14y agoI also compared Derby vs Meteor vs SocketStream and settled on SocketStream due to the level of control and maturity it provides.
- malandrew 14y agoCan we please stop with the framework approach? Node.js has what is probably the best package management system out there. Frameworks are really only necessary when you have crappy package management or specific problems. NPM makes is so easy to use libraries liberally and that's what people should be doing. With frameworks, the framework calls your code. With libraries, your code calls the libraries. If you've never taken the libraries approach and are working with a framework, then you are essentially holding a hammer and looking at all problems as nails. What I'd prefer to hear about is a discussion of Racer, the synchronization library used in Derby.
- stickfigure 14y agoThis is a false dichotomy. Code calls code calls code; frameworks are libraries are frameworks. The only difference is when a library gets big and complicated enough, we call it a framework. By your silly standard, passing a function to _.each() makes Underscore.js a "framework", which is probably not the point you were trying to make.
- aaronblohowiak 14y agoIt isn't a false dichotomy. Inside of vs on-top-of. Or, you can say that framework code is lower in the stack frames. Or, you can say that you must make your code comply with the framework's execution model. Or, you could say that the framework supplies the organization and you provide the customization. From this perspective, underscore.js presents an Enumeration framework. However, it is usually a couple stack frames deep and still way at the leafs of your code paths. Backbone.js is clearly a framework -- it describes your data model plumbing and interactions and provides the bindings and pipelines -- this structure dominates the organization of your code and program flow. Nothing about underscore's utility functions have this "infectious" or "dominating" characteristic. I used to maintain: https://twitter.com/FrameworkvsLib https://twitter.com/FrameworkvsLib
- rektide 14y agoI don't have a strict definition for library and framework, but I think the distinction comes down to more than just size. A framework is indeed "just a library," but when one is using a framework one is building on that framework, using that structure to construct some new thing. A library I see as something that is called into for some routine, it's a body of functionalities one can tap into. Your code is-a instance of your chosen framework, and it has-a series of calls out to libraries.
- knodi 14y agoI guess i'm the only one who hates using Node.js, mainly because I have javascript.
- zbruhnke 14y agoI met with Nate and Brian a while back, both these guys are extremely intelligent hackers with great business sense. They're currently building a core product that actually has a business model with the derby framework which will help it progress along very well. While they may not have raised 11.2M these guys aren't going anywhere. In spending just an hour or two with them their talents really shined through. As a supporter of rails I will certainly be staying on top of changes to both Derby and Meteor and looking forward to what comes next for both. The reality is the creation of frameworks like these is nothing but a good thing for the hacker community at large. Congrats on the press guys, Keep up the good work!
- nateps 14y agoThanks, Zach!
- geoffschmidt 14y agoI can second this for sure -- they have a combination of intelligence, business ability, and product sense that is incredibly rare. I've twice missed the opportunity to work with Nate, and I hope I'll get a third shot someday. They are also some of the most determined people I've ever met. I think Derby is really cool, especially the synchronization and conflict resolution model. Though we've made some different choices with Meteor, I think there are many people that will like Derby's direction. Everyone benefits when there are multiple choices.
- elchief 14y agoI thought Derby was an embedded Java database... Look at Voldemort Nosql DB. Now that's a unique (to software) name.
- mahmud 14y agoYep. People don't google names before they "make them up".
- hsuresh 14y agoDirect link to the library: http://derbyjs.com/ http://derbyjs.com/ Ironic that i come to know about this framework via Techcrunch.
- thefreshteapot 14y agoThis is not the right place for it. I have now understood Meteor has funding of $11million dollars. What exactly are they funding in? Please explain, im a developer who clearly fails to understand business. Edit: Please feel free to email if you would rather keep this thread clean from this detour.
- timc3 14y agoA few months back I decided to give some time to both Derby and Meteor. Derby appealed because of the packaging, but Meteor obviously had the media traction. I gave 10 days to each to see what I would learn and build. After the 20 days my biggest problem was with Derby and trying to make progress as the community and support just wasn't there. Of course you might think that one shouldn't complain about this, but its important for the uptake to have clear documentation (it starts well), guides and people involved etc. I think it was Nate that would answer my stupid questions on IRC when he had time, but other than that I was on my own and the feeling I got from others was the same... Normally I would just read the source, but it was in coffeescript ( glad that Derby has now moved to plain Javascript), and it just wasn't enjoyable when I wanted to integrate with my own datasource from a custom JSON backend - not just another NoSQL database, but an API I know well. I got it working and so forth but it did make me wonder why the hell I bothered and rm'd the git repo. Doing the same exercise using Meteor the first thing that struck me at the time was their community. The second thing was I was having fun again, and thirdly it was less effort as long as I didn't leave the path too much. But the fact that it didn't have auth and that my datasource was completely exposed and that I couldn't use existing packages was a downside. So I put both to bed. I hope Derby is getting greater traction and a community is starting to form around it. I also hope that the move to Javascript will make some of the design decisions clearer. In a few months I will probably give one or other a proper project to work on.
- buster 14y agoSooo.. Move over Derby: Socketstream is the other high speed node.js framework in town? Anyone? ;)
- phillc 14y agoYes. I have played with many js frameworks, including derby, meteor, tower, and several more while attempting to build my toy app http://retr.us http://retr.us . While it is built in meteor, I have concluded that I liked socketstream the best because of the level of control, especially on the server side. It also was the easiest to write unit tests for.
- taterbase 14y agoMy biggest gripe with Meteor is their effort in creating a new package manager. We already have NPM and it works well. I feel that for Meteor to truly be embraced by the Node.js community they'll need to embrace NPM.
- user49598 14y agoThis is a pretty pedestrian non-technical article about javascript frameworks that have essentially zero market share. Don't get me wrong, they're both totally awesome and anyone interested should check them out. But the article itself is pretty worthless.