5 ms·

I think its this constant denial, this lie, "the land of the free", that is the reason why things just dont improve in the states. From the red scare to the peo

by ralfn 14y ago

I think its this constant denial, this lie, "the land of the free", that is the reason why things just dont improve in the states. From the red scare to the people-we-dont-like-are-now-called-terrorist. Why not just accept the fact that Russia, the US and China are most alike when It comes to freedom. And that actually free places, are by definition less powerfull. (because of those pesky morals and ideals). Lets be honest. You are more like Russia, than like Canada. You are more like China, than like Holland. You are not the "country of the free". You are the least evil superpower, and wihout you other nations, like mine, would not be free. So, as a dutch citizen, i thank you for your sacrifice. I thank you for the nuclear umbrella, your inclusive economic nature, and by extension my freedom. Im sorry, that you dont get to experience it yourself. But you cant be a free superpower. There is no such thing.

enraged_camel 14y ago
I think "land of the free" originally made sense, as it meant "free from British oppression and taxation." In today's context though, it's just nationalist propaganda.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  How is nationalist propaganda specific to the US?
  - pessimizer 14y ago
    In the spirit of explaining downvotes: You replied to a two sentence post, and neither sentence advanced an assertion that nationalist propaganda was specific to the US.
dalore 14y ago
Yes as the USA locks up more people in prison per capita than any other country, how can it call it self the land of the free?
- cema 14y ago
  The land of not exclusively free.
haberman 14y ago
> Why not just accept the fact that Russia, the US and China are most alike when It comes to freedom. Because it's not true. For example, observe how the US consistently beats China and Russia by significant margins in freedom indexes: In the Democracy Index compiled by the UK-based Economist Intelligence Unit, the US is considered a Full Democracy and both Russia and China are considered Authoritarian Regimes. In the Press Freedom Index, compiled by the French organization Reporters Without Borders, the US is 47th out of 179, Russia is 142nd and China is 174th. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index) In the Economic Freedom of the World Index, published by the Fraser Institute (based in Canada), the US is 10th out of 141, Russia is 81st and China is 92nd. I chose indexes that were compiled outside the United States to avoid attempts to paint these numbers as biased. Other numbers compiled inside the US concerning human rights also strongly favor the US over Russia and China. You say we should "be honest," but your claims are not supported by the facts.
- ericd 14y ago
  Could it be that those aren't completely unbiased, despite being based outside the US? Maybe others give it the benefit of the doubt when compiling these things whereas they don't with those other regimes.
  - haberman 14y ago
    While we could debate the possible biases of people outside the US, a much more interesting question is whether there is any support whatsoever for the idea that the US is like Russia and China when it comes to freedom. It's an absurd comparison, and the purpose of citing the indexes is to show just how absurd it is, since they measure such things in absolute terms. A little bias isn't going to make the difference between "Full Democracy" (the most free in the Democracy Index) and "Authoritarian Regime" (the least free).
  - CapitalistCartr 14y ago
    Maybe lots of things are true, but the evidence supports his assertion. He provided three excellent references for his position; you provide a leading question. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. The USA is getting steadily less free, but is still far ahead of Russia or China.
haberman 14y ago
By the way, the US beats the Netherlands by a significant margin in the Economic Freedom Index. So while the Netherlands seems like a very nice place (which I am visiting in a few weeks) and scores very well in democracy and press freedom, it's not as free as the US by some measures. Maybe you should come here if you want to form a startup. :)
- cema 14y ago
  Those indices are weighted and we may apply different coefficients depending on what kind of freedom we are studying (freedom of the press, business, human rights, etc).
- ralfn 14y ago
  That makes sense. One could even argue, that it is the prime freedom that 'powers' the US. (it could not be a superpower without) Although, personally, i consider the most "free" market, to be about more than tax levels and (lack of) labour laws. The current interpretation is very one dimensional. For example, the US (and Holland as well), do not protect against legislative extortion. Nor do they effectively limit anti-competitive behavior. You can not build a solid stable company on top of any infrastructure owned by potential competitors. From net-neutrality to side-loading of apps. The freedom to innovate pricing models conflicts with the freedom to innovate actual products.

by ralfn 14y ago

enraged_camel 14y ago

I think "land of the free" originally made sense, as it meant "free from British oppression and taxation." In today's context though, it's just nationalist propaganda.

slurgfest 14y ago
How is nationalist propaganda specific to the US?
- pessimizer 14y ago
  In the spirit of explaining downvotes: You replied to a two sentence post, and neither sentence advanced an assertion that nationalist propaganda was specific to the US.

dalore 14y ago

Yes as the USA locks up more people in prison per capita than any other country, how can it call it self the land of the free?

cema 14y ago
The land of not exclusively free.

haberman 14y ago

> Why not just accept the fact that Russia, the US and China are most alike when It comes to freedom. Because it's not true. For example, observe how the US consistently beats China and Russia by significant margins in freedom indexes: In the Democracy Index compiled by the UK-based Economist Intelligence Unit, the US is considered a Full Democracy and both Russia and China are considered Authoritarian Regimes. In the Press Freedom Index, compiled by the French organization Reporters Without Borders, the US is 47th out of 179, Russia is 142nd and China is 174th. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index) In the Economic Freedom of the World Index, published by the Fraser Institute (based in Canada), the US is 10th out of 141, Russia is 81st and China is 92nd. I chose indexes that were compiled outside the United States to avoid attempts to paint these numbers as biased. Other numbers compiled inside the US concerning human rights also strongly favor the US over Russia and China. You say we should "be honest," but your claims are not supported by the facts.

ericd 14y ago
Could it be that those aren't completely unbiased, despite being based outside the US? Maybe others give it the benefit of the doubt when compiling these things whereas they don't with those other regimes.
- haberman 14y ago
  While we could debate the possible biases of people outside the US, a much more interesting question is whether there is any support whatsoever for the idea that the US is like Russia and China when it comes to freedom. It's an absurd comparison, and the purpose of citing the indexes is to show just how absurd it is, since they measure such things in absolute terms. A little bias isn't going to make the difference between "Full Democracy" (the most free in the Democracy Index) and "Authoritarian Regime" (the least free).
- CapitalistCartr 14y ago
  Maybe lots of things are true, but the evidence supports his assertion. He provided three excellent references for his position; you provide a leading question. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. The USA is getting steadily less free, but is still far ahead of Russia or China.

haberman 14y ago

By the way, the US beats the Netherlands by a significant margin in the Economic Freedom Index. So while the Netherlands seems like a very nice place (which I am visiting in a few weeks) and scores very well in democracy and press freedom, it's not as free as the US by some measures. Maybe you should come here if you want to form a startup. :)

cema 14y ago
Those indices are weighted and we may apply different coefficients depending on what kind of freedom we are studying (freedom of the press, business, human rights, etc).
ralfn 14y ago
That makes sense. One could even argue, that it is the prime freedom that 'powers' the US. (it could not be a superpower without) Although, personally, i consider the most "free" market, to be about more than tax levels and (lack of) labour laws. The current interpretation is very one dimensional. For example, the US (and Holland as well), do not protect against legislative extortion. Nor do they effectively limit anti-competitive behavior. You can not build a solid stable company on top of any infrastructure owned by potential competitors. From net-neutrality to side-loading of apps. The freedom to innovate pricing models conflicts with the freedom to innovate actual products.