5 ms·

"spreading awareness about a position" isn't a very accurate way to describe what happened. This is the guy who said he wanted to use social media to create a "

by bigstrat2003 2y ago

"spreading awareness about a position" isn't a very accurate way to describe what happened. This is the guy who said he wanted to use social media to create a "hall of shame" for kernel developers. Of course Linus told him to knock it off, that's ridiculously unprofessional behavior.

cogman10 2y ago
Yup, I think it went too far. The fact is, you need buy in from other devs and if a dev won't buy in you need to work out a way to avoid them or avoid conflict. It sucks, it slows things down, but frankly making it a "them vs us" is a sure fire way to make them oppose any change you want to make. Public shaming even more disastrous as there's no better way to entrench someone in a position.
- __float 2y ago
  I'm not entirely convinced they meant to truly make a public hall of shame. It sounded to me like a list of "friends who want to get more involved, I'll let you know who to avoid". Then, I read the interactions that sparked that post, and I could totally understand the frustration from OP's part. Linus being unwilling to take a real stand on maintainers blocking Rust just because doesn't really help.
  - diggan 2y ago
    Someone wrote (https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98c3-a48ab35bb9db@marcan.st/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98...): > To back up Sima here, we don't need grandstanding, brigading, playing > to the crowd, streamer drama creation or any of that in discussions > around this. Marcan replied (https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98c3-a48ab35bb9db@marcan.st/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98...): > If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. Then Linus replied (https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSUGq8vUZAOWWSK1vrJarMaOhReDRQRYQ@mail.gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU...): > However, I will say that the social media brigading just makes me not want to have anything at all to do with your approach. > Because if we have issues in the kernel development model, then social media sure as hell isn't the solution. The same way it sure as hell wasn't the solution to politics. To me, it sure sounds like Marcan is making the case that they tried other venues, didn't feel like it worked, so they resolved to using their social media following to shame kernel developers if they didn't stop.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  It's deeply ironic that he's complaining about kernel maintainers supposedly forming secret cliques. However... this is the same man who made a sock puppet V-Tuber account, and acts in every way like they are two people; even though they've accidentally on-stream shared the system username, shared they have exactly the same kernel version, same KDE configuration, same login, same time zone, even (if I recall correctly) accidentally making GitHub commits as the other person once in a while. He also did this on the Linux kernel mailing lists, where he still maintains the charade. Point out that's weird, or that it's weird for a maintainer to have a fake persona as a walking female stereotype; and you're the one he shreds and mocks - while simultaneously not denying it. For me, I caught on immediately when I saw the supposed "hijacking" of his stream on April Fool's day, which was her first appearance; and stopped donating. I don't pay people to support stereotypes about women in STEM.
  - thw8419 2y ago
    Even if he did that, which I'm not in a position to judge: That is an entirely different situation from facing inner circles in an open source project while contributing to a major port. Sock puppets aren't taken seriously while the word of the inner circle is taken as gospel.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      Reminder that he did this on the Linux kernel mailing lists. If I was a Linux maintainer who found out that two of the people I'm talking to, are actually with high likelihood the same person secretly maintaining a charade, I wouldn't be far from banning both. I also certainly wouldn't take any of his complaints about cliques or brigading with any seriousness or self-reflection afterwards.
  - danw1979 2y ago
    How does having an alter-ego make it deeply ironic that he complains about secret cliques? I don’t get it. I’ve been supporting Hector since week 1 of the Asahi project and I think it’s a shame he’s thrown in the towel but I can understand why. I don’t know enough about kernel development to have an opinion about about the Kernel policy of “no aliases” for contributions. I certainly don’t care that some people think it’s weird for a man to have a female alter ego. Maybe those things matter to you.
- prododev 2y ago
  [dead]
- LinXitoW 2y ago
  But the point is that the Rust developers have tried literally everything else. If the C developers make it a "Them vs Us" thing, there IS NO ALTERNATIVE for the Rust developers. Linus' reaction is quite literally the equivalent of a parent only punishing the loudest child, not the child that's been silently bullying that kid for months.
  - cogman10 2y ago
    Don't know what to tell you. The C developers have the keys of the kingdom. It's up to the rust devs to appease them. When you are a new-comer to an old project a big part of that is working with the current gatekeepers to get your changes through in a way they'll accept. That can sometimes mean doing things sub optimally in your view. In particular, the DMA maintainer didn't want rust code in their DMA subsystem. That sucks, but it means you need to relocate your dma bridge code out of their subsystem. It does mean your driver will be a second-class citizen in the kernel tree (which was always going to be the case for rust). Linus' reaction was to someone who started a public campaign against another kernel developer and tried to use that following to pressure the maintainers of the kernel to bend to the will of the newcommer. I'm sorry, but I'd also have a pretty negative reaction to that. The workplace equivalent is you publishing a whistle blowing article against a team in your company because they'd not accept a pull request you worked very hard on. You don't do that. You handle things internally and privately and sometimes you tell the boss "sorry, I can't get this done because another team is blocking the change and they are unwilling to work with me". And do not mistake my post. I'm not siding with the C dev just because I'm critiquing the rust dev. Guy sounds like he's too stuck in his way. The problem is you don't get a big well working and long running project like the kernel without having these sorts of long-term maintainers that make the calls and shots on what to reject.
    - reshlo 2y ago
      > The workplace equivalent is you publishing a whistle blowing article against a team in your company because they'd not accept a pull request you worked very hard on. The workplace equivalent is your CEO making a public statement that your work is to be supported, then not firing people who openly gloat about their intent to sabotage your work.
Capricorn2481 2y ago
Wow, what an uncharitable read. Are you aware of what that term means? He said it was not about literally shaming people, but showing what contributing to the kernel is like, and even clarified it wouldn't be for public consumption. It's a colloquialism for a resource where peers can learn from each other's mistakes. My high school Spanish class had a hall of shame. It's a magnitude more professional than the extremely over the top and public emails that Linus shares, which HN jerks off over. I too would be burnt out if people were picking apart what I said so closely but clapping when Linus says "this code is retarded"
- diggan 2y ago
  > He said it was not about literally shaming people The original message I read (https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98c3-a48ab35bb9db@marcan.st/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98...) they quite explicitly said (verbatim): "If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas."
  - Capricorn2481 2y ago
    Yes I'm aware of that quote, which doesn't make sense to link with the original quote because his intentions with the "Hall of shame" are different from this quote. This message brings up a lot of valid complaints about talented developers being stonewalled and you're honing in on one word that is not being used the way you think. Again, there are dozens of emails from Linus that are vastly more unprofessional than this.
    - diggan 2y ago
      > because his intentions with the "Hall of shame" are different from this quote. Aha, I thought it was referring to the same "event"/context but it clearly didn't. Thank you for the correction.
- felipec 2y ago
  As if he didn't read the comment about not wanting the cross-language code to spread like cancer in the most uncharitable way possible.
codr7 2y ago
[flagged]
ho_schi 2y ago
Background Story https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15262ec@marcan.st/T/#ma7e177d778daf3cc6ca60eae1fb6f1156089e407 https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15262ec@marcan.st/T/#mfc6182f069ea68fe8d38051284833fd75cfa933f https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15262ec@marcan.st/T/#m88154e6eb27c88336ac9e9e71f47e0e94b7613b6 https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15262ec@marcan.st/T/#m0e51b13c80240a58a1b0f80e9b87001c635f9fcb https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15... 1. I think the the DMA maintainer is correct. Don't intertwine implementation languages, that is bad idea and a maintenance hell. 2. Social media "hall of shame" 3. Torvalds is forced to make a statement because of 2. Not 1.
- oskarkk 2y ago
  And here are the Hector's posts on Mastodon, now deleted: https://archive.is/uLiWX https://archive.is/uLiWX https://archive.is/rESxe https://archive.is/rESxe "Behold, a Linux maintainer openly admitting to attempting to sabotage the entire Rust for Linux project (...) Personally, I would consider this grounds for removal of Christoph from the Linux project on Code of Conduct violation grounds, but sadly I doubt much will happen other than draining a lot of people's energy and will to continue the project until Linus says "fuck you" or something. (...)" "Thinking of literally starting a Linux maintainer hall of shame. Not for public consumption, but to help new kernel contributors know what to expect. Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down." "Okay I literally just started this privately and the first 3 names involved are all people named variants on "Christ". Maybe there's a pattern here... religion secretly trying to sabotage the Linux kernel behind the scenes??? Edit: /s because apparently some people need it."
LinXitoW 2y ago
The issue is that Linus put the Rust developers in an impossible position: On the one hand he approved Rust in the kernel, but then never ever ever has the balls to enforce that decision. Then, the fanatical C developers openly sabotage and work against all the Rust developers efforts. So, the last option for the Rust developers is to take it to social media. Otherwise, the C developers get away with creating a self fulfilling prophecy: Sabotage all Rust efforts, then claim the Rust experiment failed. Linus didn't seem to ever have the time to actually take a stance, except of course on the social media issue. Fully ignoring all context. It's the equivalent of a school principal suspending the bullied victim for finally snapping and punching their bully.
- surajrmal 2y ago
  The thread didn't really have drama before marcan stirred the pot. There was a disagreement, but the individuals pushing for the merge were not attempting to escalate, only try to find a path forward in a way that might make both parties happy with the compromise. The drama and social media outrage arguably did nothing to help, and as far as I can tell, simply makes for good entertainment for onlookers who like to gossip. While it would be nice to have Linus help out here with a clear resolution after escalation, it's clear to me that the behavior marcan displayed is the higher priority problem to address.
  - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
    I think this isn't the right take. the "disagreement" was a kernel maintainer saying "Rust in the Linux kernel is a mistake and I will do everything in my power to sabotage Rust adoption" (as feedback on version 8 of a patch). The fact that open undermining of Rust for Linux receives no pushback from Linus or anyone else with power in the Kernel is shocking.
    - stirlo 2y ago
      100% this. Yes, Hector went nuclear, but he begged Linus to step in and provide leadership (either merge or reject) and instead Linus ignored the whole technical issue with regards to rust being totally blocked. Even now with Hector out of the picture, there’s still no suitable path forward for rust in Linux. No wonder why people are giving up (exactly what the blockers want).

cogman10 2y ago

Yup, I think it went too far. The fact is, you need buy in from other devs and if a dev won't buy in you need to work out a way to avoid them or avoid conflict. It sucks, it slows things down, but frankly making it a "them vs us" is a sure fire way to make them oppose any change you want to make. Public shaming even more disastrous as there's no better way to entrench someone in a position.

__float 2y ago
I'm not entirely convinced they meant to truly make a public hall of shame. It sounded to me like a list of "friends who want to get more involved, I'll let you know who to avoid". Then, I read the interactions that sparked that post, and I could totally understand the frustration from OP's part. Linus being unwilling to take a real stand on maintainers blocking Rust just because doesn't really help.
- diggan 2y ago
  Someone wrote (https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98c3-a48ab35bb9db@marcan.st/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98...): > To back up Sima here, we don't need grandstanding, brigading, playing > to the crowd, streamer drama creation or any of that in discussions > around this. Marcan replied (https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98c3-a48ab35bb9db@marcan.st/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98...): > If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. Then Linus replied (https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSUGq8vUZAOWWSK1vrJarMaOhReDRQRYQ@mail.gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU...): > However, I will say that the social media brigading just makes me not want to have anything at all to do with your approach. > Because if we have issues in the kernel development model, then social media sure as hell isn't the solution. The same way it sure as hell wasn't the solution to politics. To me, it sure sounds like Marcan is making the case that they tried other venues, didn't feel like it worked, so they resolved to using their social media following to shame kernel developers if they didn't stop.
gjsman-1000 2y ago
It's deeply ironic that he's complaining about kernel maintainers supposedly forming secret cliques. However... this is the same man who made a sock puppet V-Tuber account, and acts in every way like they are two people; even though they've accidentally on-stream shared the system username, shared they have exactly the same kernel version, same KDE configuration, same login, same time zone, even (if I recall correctly) accidentally making GitHub commits as the other person once in a while. He also did this on the Linux kernel mailing lists, where he still maintains the charade. Point out that's weird, or that it's weird for a maintainer to have a fake persona as a walking female stereotype; and you're the one he shreds and mocks - while simultaneously not denying it. For me, I caught on immediately when I saw the supposed "hijacking" of his stream on April Fool's day, which was her first appearance; and stopped donating. I don't pay people to support stereotypes about women in STEM.
- thw8419 2y ago
  Even if he did that, which I'm not in a position to judge: That is an entirely different situation from facing inner circles in an open source project while contributing to a major port. Sock puppets aren't taken seriously while the word of the inner circle is taken as gospel.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    Reminder that he did this on the Linux kernel mailing lists. If I was a Linux maintainer who found out that two of the people I'm talking to, are actually with high likelihood the same person secretly maintaining a charade, I wouldn't be far from banning both. I also certainly wouldn't take any of his complaints about cliques or brigading with any seriousness or self-reflection afterwards.
- danw1979 2y ago
  How does having an alter-ego make it deeply ironic that he complains about secret cliques? I don’t get it. I’ve been supporting Hector since week 1 of the Asahi project and I think it’s a shame he’s thrown in the towel but I can understand why. I don’t know enough about kernel development to have an opinion about about the Kernel policy of “no aliases” for contributions. I certainly don’t care that some people think it’s weird for a man to have a female alter ego. Maybe those things matter to you.
prododev 2y ago
[dead]
LinXitoW 2y ago
But the point is that the Rust developers have tried literally everything else. If the C developers make it a "Them vs Us" thing, there IS NO ALTERNATIVE for the Rust developers. Linus' reaction is quite literally the equivalent of a parent only punishing the loudest child, not the child that's been silently bullying that kid for months.
- cogman10 2y ago
  Don't know what to tell you. The C developers have the keys of the kingdom. It's up to the rust devs to appease them. When you are a new-comer to an old project a big part of that is working with the current gatekeepers to get your changes through in a way they'll accept. That can sometimes mean doing things sub optimally in your view. In particular, the DMA maintainer didn't want rust code in their DMA subsystem. That sucks, but it means you need to relocate your dma bridge code out of their subsystem. It does mean your driver will be a second-class citizen in the kernel tree (which was always going to be the case for rust). Linus' reaction was to someone who started a public campaign against another kernel developer and tried to use that following to pressure the maintainers of the kernel to bend to the will of the newcommer. I'm sorry, but I'd also have a pretty negative reaction to that. The workplace equivalent is you publishing a whistle blowing article against a team in your company because they'd not accept a pull request you worked very hard on. You don't do that. You handle things internally and privately and sometimes you tell the boss "sorry, I can't get this done because another team is blocking the change and they are unwilling to work with me". And do not mistake my post. I'm not siding with the C dev just because I'm critiquing the rust dev. Guy sounds like he's too stuck in his way. The problem is you don't get a big well working and long running project like the kernel without having these sorts of long-term maintainers that make the calls and shots on what to reject.
  - reshlo 2y ago
    > The workplace equivalent is you publishing a whistle blowing article against a team in your company because they'd not accept a pull request you worked very hard on. The workplace equivalent is your CEO making a public statement that your work is to be supported, then not firing people who openly gloat about their intent to sabotage your work.

Capricorn2481 2y ago

Wow, what an uncharitable read. Are you aware of what that term means? He said it was not about literally shaming people, but showing what contributing to the kernel is like, and even clarified it wouldn't be for public consumption. It's a colloquialism for a resource where peers can learn from each other's mistakes. My high school Spanish class had a hall of shame. It's a magnitude more professional than the extremely over the top and public emails that Linus shares, which HN jerks off over. I too would be burnt out if people were picking apart what I said so closely but clapping when Linus says "this code is retarded"

diggan 2y ago
> He said it was not about literally shaming people The original message I read (https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98c3-a48ab35bb9db@marcan.st/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98...) they quite explicitly said (verbatim): "If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas."
- Capricorn2481 2y ago
  Yes I'm aware of that quote, which doesn't make sense to link with the original quote because his intentions with the "Hall of shame" are different from this quote. This message brings up a lot of valid complaints about talented developers being stonewalled and you're honing in on one word that is not being used the way you think. Again, there are dozens of emails from Linus that are vastly more unprofessional than this.
  - diggan 2y ago
    > because his intentions with the "Hall of shame" are different from this quote. Aha, I thought it was referring to the same "event"/context but it clearly didn't. Thank you for the correction.
felipec 2y ago
As if he didn't read the comment about not wanting the cross-language code to spread like cancer in the most uncharitable way possible.

codr7 2y ago

[flagged]

ho_schi 2y ago

Background Story https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15262ec@marcan.st/T/#ma7e177d778daf3cc6ca60eae1fb6f1156089e407 https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15262ec@marcan.st/T/#mfc6182f069ea68fe8d38051284833fd75cfa933f https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15262ec@marcan.st/T/#m88154e6eb27c88336ac9e9e71f47e0e94b7613b6 https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15262ec@marcan.st/T/#m0e51b13c80240a58a1b0f80e9b87001c635f9fcb https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15... 1. I think the the DMA maintainer is correct. Don't intertwine implementation languages, that is bad idea and a maintenance hell. 2. Social media "hall of shame" 3. Torvalds is forced to make a statement because of 2. Not 1.

oskarkk 2y ago
And here are the Hector's posts on Mastodon, now deleted: https://archive.is/uLiWX https://archive.is/uLiWX https://archive.is/rESxe https://archive.is/rESxe "Behold, a Linux maintainer openly admitting to attempting to sabotage the entire Rust for Linux project (...) Personally, I would consider this grounds for removal of Christoph from the Linux project on Code of Conduct violation grounds, but sadly I doubt much will happen other than draining a lot of people's energy and will to continue the project until Linus says "fuck you" or something. (...)" "Thinking of literally starting a Linux maintainer hall of shame. Not for public consumption, but to help new kernel contributors know what to expect. Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down." "Okay I literally just started this privately and the first 3 names involved are all people named variants on "Christ". Maybe there's a pattern here... religion secretly trying to sabotage the Linux kernel behind the scenes??? Edit: /s because apparently some people need it."

LinXitoW 2y ago

The issue is that Linus put the Rust developers in an impossible position: On the one hand he approved Rust in the kernel, but then never ever ever has the balls to enforce that decision. Then, the fanatical C developers openly sabotage and work against all the Rust developers efforts. So, the last option for the Rust developers is to take it to social media. Otherwise, the C developers get away with creating a self fulfilling prophecy: Sabotage all Rust efforts, then claim the Rust experiment failed. Linus didn't seem to ever have the time to actually take a stance, except of course on the social media issue. Fully ignoring all context. It's the equivalent of a school principal suspending the bullied victim for finally snapping and punching their bully.

surajrmal 2y ago
The thread didn't really have drama before marcan stirred the pot. There was a disagreement, but the individuals pushing for the merge were not attempting to escalate, only try to find a path forward in a way that might make both parties happy with the compromise. The drama and social media outrage arguably did nothing to help, and as far as I can tell, simply makes for good entertainment for onlookers who like to gossip. While it would be nice to have Linus help out here with a clear resolution after escalation, it's clear to me that the behavior marcan displayed is the higher priority problem to address.
- adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
  I think this isn't the right take. the "disagreement" was a kernel maintainer saying "Rust in the Linux kernel is a mistake and I will do everything in my power to sabotage Rust adoption" (as feedback on version 8 of a patch). The fact that open undermining of Rust for Linux receives no pushback from Linus or anyone else with power in the Kernel is shocking.
  - stirlo 2y ago
    100% this. Yes, Hector went nuclear, but he begged Linus to step in and provide leadership (either merge or reject) and instead Linus ignored the whole technical issue with regards to rust being totally blocked. Even now with Hector out of the picture, there’s still no suitable path forward for rust in Linux. No wonder why people are giving up (exactly what the blockers want).