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As another European it amuses me that Europe cannot give up this smug attitude and keeps looking at the US in such a condescending way. Meanwhile Europe has bee

As another European it amuses me that Europe cannot give up this smug attitude and keeps looking at the US in such a condescending way. Meanwhile Europe has been in freefall for a decade and nobody here seems to notice.

croes 2y ago
Compared to the US the EU falls much slower
- throw_pm23 2y ago
  You must be kidding, the last decade is about Europe totally shooting themselves in the foot and giving up leadership in almost every field. US and China have been the big winners here.
  - croes 2y ago
    The US fell in a month much deeper than the EU in a decade. Like I said the EU falls slower.
    - throw_pm23 2y ago
      I'm not going to try convincing you, as again, the attitude you express is very common across Europe. Just a small question you may want to consider: how come the US is calling the shots everywhere around the world, Mid-East, Ukraine, etc., and in all technological issues that matter. Where is Europe in all this? Ten years ago, at least Angela Merkel was sitting at the table. Can you claim with a straight face that the influence of Europe has not decreased?
      - croes 2y ago
        >Can you claim with a straight face that the influence of Europe has not decreased? Yes, I can. Do you remember what happened when it came out that the USA was tapping Merkel's cell phone? Maybe she sat on the table but shots were still called by the US.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      It may fall slower but it also keeps falling... US' GDP is now 80% higher than EU's. The usual retort is that Europeans are not chasing money and prefer to have good quality of life, healthcare, etc. but this misses the key thing that if your income falls behind little by little at some point you will no longer be able to afford those things... we're already seeing it.
      - croes 2y ago
        The usual resort is that the EU fears debt. Just compare US debt rising to US GDP rising.
      - diggan 2y ago
        > we're already seeing it. Where exactly are we seeing this? AFAIK, most people in Europe still has access to healthcare, and still be able to have a job + free-time, with parental leave and more. Has that disappeared from any countries where it used to exist? I think the constant worry and focus on GDP is a great example of the differences of mindset between Americans and Europeans. As long as "number goes up!" is true, Americans seem to think that most things are fine and working alright, while a European might be more focused on things on the ground and around them in their daily life, rather than judging their quality of life based on how the economy is doing for the rich people.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        You are both missing my point and perfectly illustrating it.
      - verzali 2y ago
        Yeah but you guys can't even afford to buy eggs...
  - regularjack 2y ago
    If TFA is an example of the US being a "big winner" then I'm happy to be on the losing side.
- sagolikasoppor 2y ago
  That is probably because you live in the states that you think that. The EU is so regulated its hard to do anything nowadays.
  - diggan 2y ago
    > The EU is so regulated its hard to do anything nowadays. What are you referring to here, specifically? Something that is a net-positive for society, and that would be legal in the US but is illegal in Europe or EU?
    - throw_pm23 2y ago
      Starting the next Google or OpenAI. Not illegal, just not possible.
      - martin_a 2y ago
        Well, Mistral is looking pretty promising for AI.
      - diggan 2y ago
        Thanks to what laws/regulations? Or was that just the meme "Europeans are lazy/slow" but tailored to HN readers? AFAIK, things like specific the text and data mining (TDM) exceptions would allow you to even train on copyrighted materials without permission in certain cases, in the example of LLMs. Mistral also seems to be making progress, and I'm not aware of any African, South American or Australian efforts that are further ahead, so while it might not be number 1, Europe is at least not last.
        throw_pm23 2y ago
        Oh, that's not a very high bar now, not being the last :) Siemens, Bosch, Mercedes-Benz, etc. etc. were innovative startups once that defined their industries and they put the foundations of the high standard of living that you enjoy now. Where are the similar European innovations of today?
diggan 2y ago
> Meanwhile Europe has been in freefall for a decade and nobody here seems to notice. We all have different values that matter. Europeans (for better or worse) tend to prefer stability, probably because of past experiences, over oligarchy and free capitalism, while the US is almost the exact opposite. So both parties look at the other and see "freefall decline for decades", both being smug about the other being worse, while we in reality care about different things.
- throw_pm23 2y ago
  The stability of Europe is an illusion. Politically and economically Europe is becoming a lightweight who will not be able to do anything without the US permission.
  - diggan 2y ago
    > The stability of Europe is an illusion I'm not sure how familiar you are with the history of the continent, but this is probably the most stable and peaceful time-period of the continent since humans started populating it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Europe is a great introduction to the subject.
    - throw_pm23 2y ago
      Yes, and the second most stable and peaceful moment was 1913 when people were celebrating a half-century of continuous growth and prosperity. I think I'll pass your introduction, thanks.
      - diggan 2y ago
        As I said, Americans and Europeans clearly care about different things :) Your sole focus on "growth" and "prosperity" makes this crystal clear and will make a good example of this in future discussions.
        2y ago

croes 2y ago

Compared to the US the EU falls much slower

throw_pm23 2y ago
You must be kidding, the last decade is about Europe totally shooting themselves in the foot and giving up leadership in almost every field. US and China have been the big winners here.
- croes 2y ago
  The US fell in a month much deeper than the EU in a decade. Like I said the EU falls slower.
  - throw_pm23 2y ago
    I'm not going to try convincing you, as again, the attitude you express is very common across Europe. Just a small question you may want to consider: how come the US is calling the shots everywhere around the world, Mid-East, Ukraine, etc., and in all technological issues that matter. Where is Europe in all this? Ten years ago, at least Angela Merkel was sitting at the table. Can you claim with a straight face that the influence of Europe has not decreased?
    - croes 2y ago
      >Can you claim with a straight face that the influence of Europe has not decreased? Yes, I can. Do you remember what happened when it came out that the USA was tapping Merkel's cell phone? Maybe she sat on the table but shots were still called by the US.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    It may fall slower but it also keeps falling... US' GDP is now 80% higher than EU's. The usual retort is that Europeans are not chasing money and prefer to have good quality of life, healthcare, etc. but this misses the key thing that if your income falls behind little by little at some point you will no longer be able to afford those things... we're already seeing it.
    - croes 2y ago
      The usual resort is that the EU fears debt. Just compare US debt rising to US GDP rising.
    - diggan 2y ago
      > we're already seeing it. Where exactly are we seeing this? AFAIK, most people in Europe still has access to healthcare, and still be able to have a job + free-time, with parental leave and more. Has that disappeared from any countries where it used to exist? I think the constant worry and focus on GDP is a great example of the differences of mindset between Americans and Europeans. As long as "number goes up!" is true, Americans seem to think that most things are fine and working alright, while a European might be more focused on things on the ground and around them in their daily life, rather than judging their quality of life based on how the economy is doing for the rich people.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        You are both missing my point and perfectly illustrating it.
    - verzali 2y ago
      Yeah but you guys can't even afford to buy eggs...
- regularjack 2y ago
  If TFA is an example of the US being a "big winner" then I'm happy to be on the losing side.
sagolikasoppor 2y ago
That is probably because you live in the states that you think that. The EU is so regulated its hard to do anything nowadays.
- diggan 2y ago
  > The EU is so regulated its hard to do anything nowadays. What are you referring to here, specifically? Something that is a net-positive for society, and that would be legal in the US but is illegal in Europe or EU?
  - throw_pm23 2y ago
    Starting the next Google or OpenAI. Not illegal, just not possible.
    - martin_a 2y ago
      Well, Mistral is looking pretty promising for AI.
    - diggan 2y ago
      Thanks to what laws/regulations? Or was that just the meme "Europeans are lazy/slow" but tailored to HN readers? AFAIK, things like specific the text and data mining (TDM) exceptions would allow you to even train on copyrighted materials without permission in certain cases, in the example of LLMs. Mistral also seems to be making progress, and I'm not aware of any African, South American or Australian efforts that are further ahead, so while it might not be number 1, Europe is at least not last.
      - throw_pm23 2y ago
        Oh, that's not a very high bar now, not being the last :) Siemens, Bosch, Mercedes-Benz, etc. etc. were innovative startups once that defined their industries and they put the foundations of the high standard of living that you enjoy now. Where are the similar European innovations of today?

diggan 2y ago

> Meanwhile Europe has been in freefall for a decade and nobody here seems to notice. We all have different values that matter. Europeans (for better or worse) tend to prefer stability, probably because of past experiences, over oligarchy and free capitalism, while the US is almost the exact opposite. So both parties look at the other and see "freefall decline for decades", both being smug about the other being worse, while we in reality care about different things.

throw_pm23 2y ago
The stability of Europe is an illusion. Politically and economically Europe is becoming a lightweight who will not be able to do anything without the US permission.
- diggan 2y ago
  > The stability of Europe is an illusion I'm not sure how familiar you are with the history of the continent, but this is probably the most stable and peaceful time-period of the continent since humans started populating it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Europe is a great introduction to the subject.
  - throw_pm23 2y ago
    Yes, and the second most stable and peaceful moment was 1913 when people were celebrating a half-century of continuous growth and prosperity. I think I'll pass your introduction, thanks.
    - diggan 2y ago
      As I said, Americans and Europeans clearly care about different things :) Your sole focus on "growth" and "prosperity" makes this crystal clear and will make a good example of this in future discussions.
      - 2y ago