6 ms·

The security and intelligence apparatus made bet big that they could prevent a second trump election, after quite successfully destabilising the first -- they f

The security and intelligence apparatus made bet big that they could prevent a second trump election, after quite successfully destabilising the first -- they failed. And now the very system of unaccountable executive power which has been built up, is now being used against the executive itself. This makes me increasingly concerned for a similar turn of events in the UK (ie., given the many actions of the UK state to enable state propaganda, censorship of the UK internet, and tracking of all citizens -- how these will be used if a far-right party comes into power.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> the very system of unaccountable executive power which has been built up, is now being used against the executive itself Musk is a fever dream incorporated by its own paranoia. There was never a deep state as potent and destructive (to say nothing of incompetent) as DOGE. The problem with its illegality is twofold. On one hand, this will be a multibillion-dollar process to undo. If it persists, it means the next D President can just order the Treasury to e.g. shred student loan records and wire money to whomever they want and ignore anything the Congress or courts do. (If there is no next D President, we shift to an imperial playbook and it will be good living for anyone already rich and really bad for anyone who isn’t.)
thereddaikon 2y ago
The difference in the UK is, there is no recourse. It's actually why America exists as a state to begin with. They have parliamentary supremacy and no enshrined checks and balances against parliament. Nor do they have a formal constitution. And the populace is disarmed. A sufficiently united parliament can in theory do what it wants. The only practical risk they have is a coordinated coup by the military. The US system, while far from perfect, does have enshrined checks and balances. A formal constitution that limits the powers of branches. And an armed populace with a history of protest and unrest when things don't go their way.
- artistic_regard 2y ago
  [dead]
- zfg 2y ago
  > The US system, while far from perfect, does have enshrined checks and balances. The current administration is having a good think about fixing that: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/trump-vance-courts/681632/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/trump-v...
bobchadwick 2y ago
Was that executive power really accrued as a result of a resistance to Trump during his first term? My understanding is that the executive branch has been exerting more power for while now, regardless of who has been in office. And does it really matter? The authority for doing many of the things Trump's current admin is doing don't actually fall to the executive branch; they're doing them anyway.
- mjburgess 2y ago
  Well it's more initially as a response to the internet (as an uncontrolled media landscape) and so-called "hybrid warfare" -- but it was deployed against trump, and increasingly so-called "far-right populism" against which it was "necessary" to deploy the full resources of the executive to "preserve democracy" (claims I don't entirely disagree with, but tactics which are nevertheless unconstitutional). Consider that Wikipedia lists the Biden connection to ukraine as a "conspiracy theory" but the trump connection to Russia as "Links between Trump associates and Russian officials" (there is no Trump connection to Russia, this was an invention of the security services; and there are as many "Links" between Biden associates and Ukraine -- but, as with trump, there is no Joe Biden-Ukraine link).
insane_dreamer 2y ago
Ah, here we go with the "invisible deep state" theory that secretly controls -- or tries to -- things behind the scenes. Does make for good movies though.
- mjburgess 2y ago
  It's not invisible, nor is it much of a secret. Nor does it "control" anything in particular. Much of the coordination against trump by NGOs funded through USAID, publicly, is just online -- you can just go watch recordings of the conferences. It's just an institutional consensus about Trump's style of populism which gave profound motivation to a large number of groups, to organise against his perceived threat. The issue is how the US government was involved -- not the activity itself -- , eg., leaning on mass media organisations to censor americans -- unconstitutional, and widely documented. You may think it's "for the good", but either way, its unconstitutional for the US gov. to do that. The US gov cannot demand social media censor americans, it's a prominent part of the bill of rights. The US gov. funds many programmes under the guise of aid, or sponsorship of "democracy" or "independent media", or, eg., "healthcare". Consider how egreious it would be for the US gov to lie about funding healthcare, but instead to use that as a guise for one of your "impossible, movie plot lines..." Oh wait, ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_in_Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_... FYI, this happened to the far-left in the 60s & 70s, leading to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee --- it's just now happening to Trump and the far-right. Kinda funny the right have discovered it, after decades of calling the left nutjob conspiracy theorists.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Consider how egreious it would be for the US gov to lie about funding healthcare, but instead to use that as a guise for one of your "impossible, movie plot lines..." Sorry, what part of the CIA hatching hare-brained schemes is incredulous? (You should have linked to acoustakitty.)
    - mjburgess 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> the very system of unaccountable executive power which has been built up, is now being used against the executive itself Musk is a fever dream incorporated by its own paranoia. There was never a deep state as potent and destructive (to say nothing of incompetent) as DOGE. The problem with its illegality is twofold. On one hand, this will be a multibillion-dollar process to undo. If it persists, it means the next D President can just order the Treasury to e.g. shred student loan records and wire money to whomever they want and ignore anything the Congress or courts do. (If there is no next D President, we shift to an imperial playbook and it will be good living for anyone already rich and really bad for anyone who isn’t.)

thereddaikon 2y ago

The difference in the UK is, there is no recourse. It's actually why America exists as a state to begin with. They have parliamentary supremacy and no enshrined checks and balances against parliament. Nor do they have a formal constitution. And the populace is disarmed. A sufficiently united parliament can in theory do what it wants. The only practical risk they have is a coordinated coup by the military. The US system, while far from perfect, does have enshrined checks and balances. A formal constitution that limits the powers of branches. And an armed populace with a history of protest and unrest when things don't go their way.

artistic_regard 2y ago
[dead]
zfg 2y ago
> The US system, while far from perfect, does have enshrined checks and balances. The current administration is having a good think about fixing that: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/trump-vance-courts/681632/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/trump-v...

bobchadwick 2y ago

Was that executive power really accrued as a result of a resistance to Trump during his first term? My understanding is that the executive branch has been exerting more power for while now, regardless of who has been in office. And does it really matter? The authority for doing many of the things Trump's current admin is doing don't actually fall to the executive branch; they're doing them anyway.

mjburgess 2y ago
Well it's more initially as a response to the internet (as an uncontrolled media landscape) and so-called "hybrid warfare" -- but it was deployed against trump, and increasingly so-called "far-right populism" against which it was "necessary" to deploy the full resources of the executive to "preserve democracy" (claims I don't entirely disagree with, but tactics which are nevertheless unconstitutional). Consider that Wikipedia lists the Biden connection to ukraine as a "conspiracy theory" but the trump connection to Russia as "Links between Trump associates and Russian officials" (there is no Trump connection to Russia, this was an invention of the security services; and there are as many "Links" between Biden associates and Ukraine -- but, as with trump, there is no Joe Biden-Ukraine link).

insane_dreamer 2y ago

Ah, here we go with the "invisible deep state" theory that secretly controls -- or tries to -- things behind the scenes. Does make for good movies though.

mjburgess 2y ago
It's not invisible, nor is it much of a secret. Nor does it "control" anything in particular. Much of the coordination against trump by NGOs funded through USAID, publicly, is just online -- you can just go watch recordings of the conferences. It's just an institutional consensus about Trump's style of populism which gave profound motivation to a large number of groups, to organise against his perceived threat. The issue is how the US government was involved -- not the activity itself -- , eg., leaning on mass media organisations to censor americans -- unconstitutional, and widely documented. You may think it's "for the good", but either way, its unconstitutional for the US gov. to do that. The US gov cannot demand social media censor americans, it's a prominent part of the bill of rights. The US gov. funds many programmes under the guise of aid, or sponsorship of "democracy" or "independent media", or, eg., "healthcare". Consider how egreious it would be for the US gov to lie about funding healthcare, but instead to use that as a guise for one of your "impossible, movie plot lines..." Oh wait, ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_in_Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_... FYI, this happened to the far-left in the 60s & 70s, leading to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee --- it's just now happening to Trump and the far-right. Kinda funny the right have discovered it, after decades of calling the left nutjob conspiracy theorists.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Consider how egreious it would be for the US gov to lie about funding healthcare, but instead to use that as a guise for one of your "impossible, movie plot lines..." Sorry, what part of the CIA hatching hare-brained schemes is incredulous? (You should have linked to acoustakitty.)
  - mjburgess 2y ago