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As a European this is just so terrifying and fascinating to watch at the same time. I really wonder (and hope for the best) what comes out of all this. With Tru

As a European this is just so terrifying and fascinating to watch at the same time. I really wonder (and hope for the best) what comes out of all this. With Trump and Musk and this agency that isn't one and all the presidential orders. Will we look at this some time later and think "well, that was really stupid, do not try again" or will the world burn down over this? Crazy times.

lenerdenator 2y ago
We'll look back on it as we do all of the other times people got away with things they shouldn't have gotten away with while holding the power of the state. I'll also add that there are absolutely people in Europe who aspire to see this kind of thing happen there, and that in some cases, it already has. See: Orban, Brexit, Le Pen, AfD, etc... and that of course doesn't touch on what happens in less-Western European countries.
- martin_a 2y ago
  > there are absolutely people in Europe who aspire to see this kind of thing happen there Yeah, that's exactly what I fear. Seeing this is a working example or a role model on how to do it here, too. And yes, you pointed out the most obvious of the bad guys.
  - diggan 2y ago
    In reality, it's the opposite. What we're seeing day-by-day in the US today matches almost exactly how the rise of Fascism was done in Europe, and how they grabbed as much power as they could, both before the second-world war, and in more modern times.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - martin_a 2y ago
    > What seems unique at this stage, [...] is the speed and brutality I think this is especially concerning. From all the reports this whole "process" looks like "shoot first, ask questions later" and I think that's not how democracies should work in regards to anything. While the goals might be very favorable and welcome, the process and way to get there has to live up to high standards, too. edit: And I think you can have speed and a momentum in doing things without going in like in a Counterstrike match.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    > As an European I find it odd that you are suggesting that the stated goals of DOGE (government efficiency, cutting public expenses, wasre, etc) are, as I interpret your choice of people/parties, "far right". They are not. Rule #1 of dealing with these sorts: The stated goals do not matter. They're sugar coating for the middle. And even if they did matter, the fact is, we have a friend of the head of government rooting around in incredibly sensitive computer systems with a cadre of interns without any sort of statutory or constitutional authority to do so. What Musk is doing is a crime. I'd argue it's actually very European. There's a guy with authority to do what he wants because reasons. Sounds like the justification used for monarchy. The only real difference is that there's a role for such a person already carved out in constitutional monarchies, as opposed to creation of it.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > As an European I find it odd that you are suggesting that the stated goals of DOGE (government efficiency, cutting public expenses, wasre, etc) are, as I interpret your choice of people/parties, "far right". Just because Hannibal Lecter's stated goal is a "tasty meal" doesn't mean it's intended to be accomplished in a good fashion.
throw_pm23 2y ago
As another European it amuses me that Europe cannot give up this smug attitude and keeps looking at the US in such a condescending way. Meanwhile Europe has been in freefall for a decade and nobody here seems to notice.
- croes 2y ago
  Compared to the US the EU falls much slower
  - throw_pm23 2y ago
    You must be kidding, the last decade is about Europe totally shooting themselves in the foot and giving up leadership in almost every field. US and China have been the big winners here.
    - croes 2y ago
      The US fell in a month much deeper than the EU in a decade. Like I said the EU falls slower.
      - throw_pm23 2y ago
        I'm not going to try convincing you, as again, the attitude you express is very common across Europe. Just a small question you may want to consider: how come the US is calling the shots everywhere around the world, Mid-East, Ukraine, etc., and in all technological issues that matter. Where is Europe in all this? Ten years ago, at least Angela Merkel was sitting at the table. Can you claim with a straight face that the influence of Europe has not decreased?
        croes 2y ago
        >Can you claim with a straight face that the influence of Europe has not decreased? Yes, I can. Do you remember what happened when it came out that the USA was tapping Merkel's cell phone? Maybe she sat on the table but shots were still called by the US.
GardenLetter27 2y ago
As a European, DOGE looks incredible. Saving tonnes of money - wish we had the same in Europe instead of extortionate taxes and a failing welfare state.
mytailorisrich 2y ago
From Europe this is especially "terrifying" because most countries have massively bigger state sectors than the US and they are very often very ineffective and wasteful. So what is happening in the US is a nightmare for some this side of the Pond because, if it does not lead to catastrophe of course (big caveat), it will give ideas... No later that yesterday the EU Commission released this (no relation whatsoever, of course): "we will radically lighten the regulatory load for people, businesses and administrations in the EU. To boost prosperity and resilience, the Commission will propose unprecedented simplification to unleash opportunities, innovation and growth." [1] Hopefully this means that the EU bureaucracy is waking up. [1] https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-making-process/planning-and-proposing-law/better-regulation/simplification-and-implementation_en https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-making-process/planning...
diggan 2y ago
> Will we look at this some time later and think "well, that was really stupid, do not try again" or will the world burn down over this? Well, considering this is like the N-th time this happen, with the last times being extensively recorded and philosophized about, I'd say we will look back at this and say "How could that have happened? Why didn't anyone do anything?", just like we did the previous times.
pb7 2y ago
Interesting how "it all works out and we realize that there was a lot of mismanagement and misappropriated funds" isn't one of your options. My money is on that one.

lenerdenator 2y ago

We'll look back on it as we do all of the other times people got away with things they shouldn't have gotten away with while holding the power of the state. I'll also add that there are absolutely people in Europe who aspire to see this kind of thing happen there, and that in some cases, it already has. See: Orban, Brexit, Le Pen, AfD, etc... and that of course doesn't touch on what happens in less-Western European countries.

martin_a 2y ago
> there are absolutely people in Europe who aspire to see this kind of thing happen there Yeah, that's exactly what I fear. Seeing this is a working example or a role model on how to do it here, too. And yes, you pointed out the most obvious of the bad guys.
- diggan 2y ago
  In reality, it's the opposite. What we're seeing day-by-day in the US today matches almost exactly how the rise of Fascism was done in Europe, and how they grabbed as much power as they could, both before the second-world war, and in more modern times.
mytailorisrich 2y ago
[flagged]
- martin_a 2y ago
  > What seems unique at this stage, [...] is the speed and brutality I think this is especially concerning. From all the reports this whole "process" looks like "shoot first, ask questions later" and I think that's not how democracies should work in regards to anything. While the goals might be very favorable and welcome, the process and way to get there has to live up to high standards, too. edit: And I think you can have speed and a momentum in doing things without going in like in a Counterstrike match.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  > As an European I find it odd that you are suggesting that the stated goals of DOGE (government efficiency, cutting public expenses, wasre, etc) are, as I interpret your choice of people/parties, "far right". They are not. Rule #1 of dealing with these sorts: The stated goals do not matter. They're sugar coating for the middle. And even if they did matter, the fact is, we have a friend of the head of government rooting around in incredibly sensitive computer systems with a cadre of interns without any sort of statutory or constitutional authority to do so. What Musk is doing is a crime. I'd argue it's actually very European. There's a guy with authority to do what he wants because reasons. Sounds like the justification used for monarchy. The only real difference is that there's a role for such a person already carved out in constitutional monarchies, as opposed to creation of it.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > As an European I find it odd that you are suggesting that the stated goals of DOGE (government efficiency, cutting public expenses, wasre, etc) are, as I interpret your choice of people/parties, "far right". Just because Hannibal Lecter's stated goal is a "tasty meal" doesn't mean it's intended to be accomplished in a good fashion.

throw_pm23 2y ago

As another European it amuses me that Europe cannot give up this smug attitude and keeps looking at the US in such a condescending way. Meanwhile Europe has been in freefall for a decade and nobody here seems to notice.

croes 2y ago
Compared to the US the EU falls much slower
- throw_pm23 2y ago
  You must be kidding, the last decade is about Europe totally shooting themselves in the foot and giving up leadership in almost every field. US and China have been the big winners here.
  - croes 2y ago
    The US fell in a month much deeper than the EU in a decade. Like I said the EU falls slower.
    - throw_pm23 2y ago
      I'm not going to try convincing you, as again, the attitude you express is very common across Europe. Just a small question you may want to consider: how come the US is calling the shots everywhere around the world, Mid-East, Ukraine, etc., and in all technological issues that matter. Where is Europe in all this? Ten years ago, at least Angela Merkel was sitting at the table. Can you claim with a straight face that the influence of Europe has not decreased?
      - croes 2y ago
        >Can you claim with a straight face that the influence of Europe has not decreased? Yes, I can. Do you remember what happened when it came out that the USA was tapping Merkel's cell phone? Maybe she sat on the table but shots were still called by the US.

GardenLetter27 2y ago

As a European, DOGE looks incredible. Saving tonnes of money - wish we had the same in Europe instead of extortionate taxes and a failing welfare state.

mytailorisrich 2y ago

From Europe this is especially "terrifying" because most countries have massively bigger state sectors than the US and they are very often very ineffective and wasteful. So what is happening in the US is a nightmare for some this side of the Pond because, if it does not lead to catastrophe of course (big caveat), it will give ideas... No later that yesterday the EU Commission released this (no relation whatsoever, of course): "we will radically lighten the regulatory load for people, businesses and administrations in the EU. To boost prosperity and resilience, the Commission will propose unprecedented simplification to unleash opportunities, innovation and growth." [1] Hopefully this means that the EU bureaucracy is waking up. [1] https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-making-process/planning-and-proposing-law/better-regulation/simplification-and-implementation_en https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-making-process/planning...

diggan 2y ago

> Will we look at this some time later and think "well, that was really stupid, do not try again" or will the world burn down over this? Well, considering this is like the N-th time this happen, with the last times being extensively recorded and philosophized about, I'd say we will look back at this and say "How could that have happened? Why didn't anyone do anything?", just like we did the previous times.

pb7 2y ago

Interesting how "it all works out and we realize that there was a lot of mismanagement and misappropriated funds" isn't one of your options. My money is on that one.