5 ms·

I don't know, the Renault Logan (and the B platform in general) was extremely good from the engineering standpoint. Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to f

I don't know, the Renault Logan (and the B platform in general) was extremely good from the engineering standpoint. Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to fix. The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there. They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a different kind of problem.

teleforce 2y ago
> The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there I'm not sure about your statement here after the wet timing belt inside engine debacle for many European cars engines including Renault that's still existed until today. It's a total disregards of the laws on material physics and chemistry [1], [2]. [1] Wet Belt in Oil Engines: Who Approved This and Why Is It Still Being Made [video]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SASSFjIt5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SASSFjIt5I [2] Why So Many People Hate Wet Timing Belts: https://www.theautopian.com/why-so-many-people-hate-wet-timing-belts/comment-page-1/ https://www.theautopian.com/why-so-many-people-hate-wet-timi...
- consp 2y ago
  While all true people also do not service their cars and these must be serviced on a regular interval with non standard components. Still a stupid design though which should never have been out into production. Glad my car has a chain, even had one in the past with a wonky guide which made lots of noise but worked until the end without issues (write-off was not engine related but purely economical, expensive tires brakes etc).
- hammock 2y ago
  The wet timing belt reduces fuel consumption by about 1% so you can thank efficiency requirements for that.
Gud 2y ago
>They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a different kind of problem. I disagree with this statement. The greatest engineer, scientist and inventor of all time, Stanford Ovshinsky, absolutely had no problem excelling in any field he put his mind to.
- mashepp 2y ago
  > The greatest engineer, scientist and inventor of all time, Stanford Ovshinsky, absolutely had no problem excelling in any field he put his mind to. So, because the greatest engineer according to your words excels at something. So it's easy for everybody to do the same?
  - Gud 2y ago
    ”the most competent”. Possibly there was a smarter mechanical engineer than Mr. Ovshinsky, it would be hard for anyone to argue he wasn’t in the top 0.1% in his field(s). Why a top engineer in the field of making petrol powered cars shouldn’t be able to quickly learn a “new field”, using quotation marks here because electric cars have been around for >100 years, is beyond my understanding.
    - idiotsecant 2y ago
      Do you think individual technical contribution is the hardest part of retooling an entire industrial supply chain? Making a car is easy.
      - thechao 2y ago
        As per "Gung Ho", starring ~Batman~ Michael Keaton.
- darkerside 2y ago
  It's incontrovertibly true at the organizational level, not necessarily the personal. Individuals can be polymaths, and I would posit that success in one domain can actually predict success in others. Organizations OTOH typically develop inertia when it comes to their goals and purpose. Any change takes time to communicate through the organization for one thing. People are conditioned to push the Pavlovian success buttons of the past, for another. Managing budgets, stakeholder expectations, and the disconnect between leadership and the ground level are a whole other class of issues.
thuddrff567gg 2y ago
I don't mean to claim that Renault is technically incompetent (obv. that's false). I find that these companies have something very unique about themselves in terms of culture. And you lose a lot when you try to change it. For eg. a lot of expats in Tokyo have this attitude that Japanese companies are dim-wits and that they have "westernize" and become English-speaking techbros (Rakuten calls this English-nization). There might be some things that can be emulated better, but the solution always tends to be a bit too... christian, or rather monotheistic (ie . wipe out everything before and mass replace).
namdnay 2y ago
M not sure you can even say they missed the electric wave - the Zoe and Leaf were some of the earliest mass market electric cars
- jorvi 2y ago
  The Leaf 2 was and is a very good EV for its price point. Its weird how Toyota had the first mass-market PHEV with the Prius but got hyperfixated on hydrogen cars, and Nissan had one of the most successful BEVs (Leaf 2, maybe even Leaf 1) and just sort-of gave up. I vaguely remember Honda having a decent EV. I wonder what makes EVs so antithetical to Japanese car companies..
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    All of Japan got obsessed with they whole 'hydrogen economy' nonsense. This was just the generally agree on 'future' of the economy. In my opinion this is complete nonsense and after decades very little has happened. Even for planes I don't think its the future. Just going one step further and making SAF is just a better plan. With hopefully more trains, and electric planes for many shorter routes.
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      At the time hydrogen was not nonsense. Good lithium batteries happened. Hydrogen is very impractical. Leaks easely and the pressure involved is scary. It is no surprise that good alternatives more or less scrapped the whole thing.
      - pfdietz 2y ago
        And expensive, which is the real killer. (Noting that this is hydrogen for vehicles; hydrogen in other applications are separate matters that should not be painted with the same broad brush.)
      - ebiester 2y ago
        There's an alternative future where some genius figured out a technical innovation for hydrogen and batteries struggle to scale. There are definite disadvantages to hydrogen in retrospect, but some of that has to do with the relative success of the engineers.
paganel 2y ago
Just saw a social media post of a guy here from Romania going with his first generation Logan all the way to Eastern Siberia / Mongolia. Great cars.

teleforce 2y ago

> The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there I'm not sure about your statement here after the wet timing belt inside engine debacle for many European cars engines including Renault that's still existed until today. It's a total disregards of the laws on material physics and chemistry [1], [2]. [1] Wet Belt in Oil Engines: Who Approved This and Why Is It Still Being Made [video]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SASSFjIt5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SASSFjIt5I [2] Why So Many People Hate Wet Timing Belts: https://www.theautopian.com/why-so-many-people-hate-wet-timing-belts/comment-page-1/ https://www.theautopian.com/why-so-many-people-hate-wet-timi...

consp 2y ago
While all true people also do not service their cars and these must be serviced on a regular interval with non standard components. Still a stupid design though which should never have been out into production. Glad my car has a chain, even had one in the past with a wonky guide which made lots of noise but worked until the end without issues (write-off was not engine related but purely economical, expensive tires brakes etc).
hammock 2y ago
The wet timing belt reduces fuel consumption by about 1% so you can thank efficiency requirements for that.

Gud 2y ago

>They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a different kind of problem. I disagree with this statement. The greatest engineer, scientist and inventor of all time, Stanford Ovshinsky, absolutely had no problem excelling in any field he put his mind to.

mashepp 2y ago
> The greatest engineer, scientist and inventor of all time, Stanford Ovshinsky, absolutely had no problem excelling in any field he put his mind to. So, because the greatest engineer according to your words excels at something. So it's easy for everybody to do the same?
- Gud 2y ago
  ”the most competent”. Possibly there was a smarter mechanical engineer than Mr. Ovshinsky, it would be hard for anyone to argue he wasn’t in the top 0.1% in his field(s). Why a top engineer in the field of making petrol powered cars shouldn’t be able to quickly learn a “new field”, using quotation marks here because electric cars have been around for >100 years, is beyond my understanding.
  - idiotsecant 2y ago
    Do you think individual technical contribution is the hardest part of retooling an entire industrial supply chain? Making a car is easy.
    - thechao 2y ago
      As per "Gung Ho", starring ~Batman~ Michael Keaton.
darkerside 2y ago
It's incontrovertibly true at the organizational level, not necessarily the personal. Individuals can be polymaths, and I would posit that success in one domain can actually predict success in others. Organizations OTOH typically develop inertia when it comes to their goals and purpose. Any change takes time to communicate through the organization for one thing. People are conditioned to push the Pavlovian success buttons of the past, for another. Managing budgets, stakeholder expectations, and the disconnect between leadership and the ground level are a whole other class of issues.

thuddrff567gg 2y ago

I don't mean to claim that Renault is technically incompetent (obv. that's false). I find that these companies have something very unique about themselves in terms of culture. And you lose a lot when you try to change it. For eg. a lot of expats in Tokyo have this attitude that Japanese companies are dim-wits and that they have "westernize" and become English-speaking techbros (Rakuten calls this English-nization). There might be some things that can be emulated better, but the solution always tends to be a bit too... christian, or rather monotheistic (ie . wipe out everything before and mass replace).

namdnay 2y ago

M not sure you can even say they missed the electric wave - the Zoe and Leaf were some of the earliest mass market electric cars

jorvi 2y ago
The Leaf 2 was and is a very good EV for its price point. Its weird how Toyota had the first mass-market PHEV with the Prius but got hyperfixated on hydrogen cars, and Nissan had one of the most successful BEVs (Leaf 2, maybe even Leaf 1) and just sort-of gave up. I vaguely remember Honda having a decent EV. I wonder what makes EVs so antithetical to Japanese car companies..
- panick21_ 2y ago
  All of Japan got obsessed with they whole 'hydrogen economy' nonsense. This was just the generally agree on 'future' of the economy. In my opinion this is complete nonsense and after decades very little has happened. Even for planes I don't think its the future. Just going one step further and making SAF is just a better plan. With hopefully more trains, and electric planes for many shorter routes.
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    At the time hydrogen was not nonsense. Good lithium batteries happened. Hydrogen is very impractical. Leaks easely and the pressure involved is scary. It is no surprise that good alternatives more or less scrapped the whole thing.
    - pfdietz 2y ago
      And expensive, which is the real killer. (Noting that this is hydrogen for vehicles; hydrogen in other applications are separate matters that should not be painted with the same broad brush.)
    - ebiester 2y ago
      There's an alternative future where some genius figured out a technical innovation for hydrogen and batteries struggle to scale. There are definite disadvantages to hydrogen in retrospect, but some of that has to do with the relative success of the engineers.

paganel 2y ago

Just saw a social media post of a guy here from Romania going with his first generation Logan all the way to Eastern Siberia / Mongolia. Great cars.