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The solution to poor people not having enough money is to give them more money (if you really want to help them). It's not to make random consumer goods like p

by harryh 2y ago

The solution to poor people not having enough money is to give them more money (if you really want to help them). It's not to make random consumer goods like parking free for all. If you do this, most of the goods will be used by people who are not poor, so it's very inefficient at helping you achieve your goal of helping poor people. In addition, many poor people won't want the thing you are making free. In the case of parking that could be because they don't own a car, so this plan doesn't help a portion of the population you are trying to help. Even more inefficient! When people think we should have free parking to help the poor, it's mostly just status quo bias at work. Most people would never say that we should make bread free. Or that we should make milk free. Parking isn't any different.

RealityVoid 2y ago
I know this probably doesn't add a lot to the conversation but for me it articulated and cleared some inconsistencies I was failing to square up in my mind. So, nice, thanks. Do you have any books or articles that helped you in your analysis, I wonder?
- harryh 2y ago
  You're welcome! The topical book to recommend here is obviously The High Cost of Free Parking. https://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Free-Parking-Updated/dp/193236496X https://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Free-Parking-Updated/dp/193...
  - davidw 2y ago
    It's quite a big book. Henry Grabar's book, mentioned elsewhere, is apparently more approachable.
    - ryantgtg 2y ago
      It’s big, but it’s very clearly written and you can likely understand the entire premise after a few chapters.
sdwr 2y ago
You're missing the trade-off between time and money (and how it differs based on wealth). "Free for all" parking spaces allow you to trade your time (hunting a spot) for parking, the same way coupon-clipping trades time for a discount on food. You can say "eliminate coupons, all food should be at market price", but coupons really are an effective way of helping people. They segment the market by being too time-consuming for wealthy people to bother with, and are a job for people who don't have a higher-paying one.
- dnissley 2y ago
  This is only true if you completely discount the very significant cost of owning a motor vehicle. The closest option to truly free continues to exist and has always existed: walking
  - dml2135 2y ago
    And, unlike with food so much of the time, in this case the cheaper option is also healthier.
- 5040 2y ago
  You can trade your time for goods, but others might trade money for time. Something to think about maybe. Free Shakespeare in the Park is a New York City civic tradition dating back to the 1950s. It is, as the name suggests, free to the public, but because Central Park’s Delacorte Theater has a finite number of seats, tickets are given out on a first come, first served basis. Some folks, who either can’t or don’t want to stand in line to get tickets, have taken to employing line-standers to do the waiting for them. According to Sandel, the price for a line-stander in 2010 was “as much as $125 per ticket for the free performances”
- wat10000 2y ago
  That's not why coupons exist, though, it's just a side effect. If coupons didn't exist and your goal was to help poor people eat, coupons would be a weird way to do it.
  - 2y ago
rob74 2y ago
That makes a lot of sense, but (mostly conservative) politicians still criticize many innovations because of their supposed effect on the (more or less) poor. Recent example: the 2023 reform of the Gebäudeenergiegesetz (Building Energy Law) in Germany, which sought to promote energy efficient ways of heating and decrease heating using fossil fuels, was met with furious opposition (including a lot of disinformation) from the conservative press and parties because of the poor poor building owners who can't afford a heat pump (which is more expensive to install, but already has much lower operating costs, which are likely to become comparatively even better in the future).
snakeyjake 2y ago
>If you do this, most of the goods will be used by people who are not poor, Why does it seem as though some people believe there is an infinite supply of rich people? Income disparity is so great that the cost of parking is irrelevant to the mythical army of rich people waiting off to the side for parking prices to come down. I'm not even in the 99%, I'm in the 97% and I don't give a fuck about parking. I'm driving downtown to buy a $600 Barbour jacket from Orvis. I don't care about $20 for parking and I'm not coming downtown more often if parking is $0. >Most people would never say that we should make bread free. Or that we should make milk free. If you are poor milk and bread should 100% be free. Support for SNAP (food stamps) routinely and consistently polls at >70%. People who assert what you just did are in the extreme minority.
- tikhonj 2y ago
  SNAP doesn't make food free in the sense of free parking, it gives money to poor people to buy food. The equivalent for parking would be market-rate parking with means-tested parking vouchers, which would be a much, much better solution than what we have now.
- harryh 2y ago
  Making milk and bread free for everyone != making milk and bread free for poor people by giving them SNAP. The former is bad, for all the reasons I described. The latter is good!

by harryh 2y ago

RealityVoid 2y ago

I know this probably doesn't add a lot to the conversation but for me it articulated and cleared some inconsistencies I was failing to square up in my mind. So, nice, thanks. Do you have any books or articles that helped you in your analysis, I wonder?

harryh 2y ago
You're welcome! The topical book to recommend here is obviously The High Cost of Free Parking. https://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Free-Parking-Updated/dp/193236496X https://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Free-Parking-Updated/dp/193...
- davidw 2y ago
  It's quite a big book. Henry Grabar's book, mentioned elsewhere, is apparently more approachable.
  - ryantgtg 2y ago
    It’s big, but it’s very clearly written and you can likely understand the entire premise after a few chapters.

sdwr 2y ago

You're missing the trade-off between time and money (and how it differs based on wealth). "Free for all" parking spaces allow you to trade your time (hunting a spot) for parking, the same way coupon-clipping trades time for a discount on food. You can say "eliminate coupons, all food should be at market price", but coupons really are an effective way of helping people. They segment the market by being too time-consuming for wealthy people to bother with, and are a job for people who don't have a higher-paying one.

dnissley 2y ago
This is only true if you completely discount the very significant cost of owning a motor vehicle. The closest option to truly free continues to exist and has always existed: walking
- dml2135 2y ago
  And, unlike with food so much of the time, in this case the cheaper option is also healthier.
5040 2y ago
You can trade your time for goods, but others might trade money for time. Something to think about maybe. Free Shakespeare in the Park is a New York City civic tradition dating back to the 1950s. It is, as the name suggests, free to the public, but because Central Park’s Delacorte Theater has a finite number of seats, tickets are given out on a first come, first served basis. Some folks, who either can’t or don’t want to stand in line to get tickets, have taken to employing line-standers to do the waiting for them. According to Sandel, the price for a line-stander in 2010 was “as much as $125 per ticket for the free performances”
wat10000 2y ago
That's not why coupons exist, though, it's just a side effect. If coupons didn't exist and your goal was to help poor people eat, coupons would be a weird way to do it.
- 2y ago

rob74 2y ago

That makes a lot of sense, but (mostly conservative) politicians still criticize many innovations because of their supposed effect on the (more or less) poor. Recent example: the 2023 reform of the Gebäudeenergiegesetz (Building Energy Law) in Germany, which sought to promote energy efficient ways of heating and decrease heating using fossil fuels, was met with furious opposition (including a lot of disinformation) from the conservative press and parties because of the poor poor building owners who can't afford a heat pump (which is more expensive to install, but already has much lower operating costs, which are likely to become comparatively even better in the future).

snakeyjake 2y ago

>If you do this, most of the goods will be used by people who are not poor, Why does it seem as though some people believe there is an infinite supply of rich people? Income disparity is so great that the cost of parking is irrelevant to the mythical army of rich people waiting off to the side for parking prices to come down. I'm not even in the 99%, I'm in the 97% and I don't give a fuck about parking. I'm driving downtown to buy a $600 Barbour jacket from Orvis. I don't care about $20 for parking and I'm not coming downtown more often if parking is $0. >Most people would never say that we should make bread free. Or that we should make milk free. If you are poor milk and bread should 100% be free. Support for SNAP (food stamps) routinely and consistently polls at >70%. People who assert what you just did are in the extreme minority.

tikhonj 2y ago
SNAP doesn't make food free in the sense of free parking, it gives money to poor people to buy food. The equivalent for parking would be market-rate parking with means-tested parking vouchers, which would be a much, much better solution than what we have now.
harryh 2y ago
Making milk and bread free for everyone != making milk and bread free for poor people by giving them SNAP. The former is bad, for all the reasons I described. The latter is good!