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Many very costly things happen if we forget the Afghanistan lesson, where an insane amount money was plowed into a military riddled with corruption that folded

by voidr 2y ago

Many very costly things happen if we forget the Afghanistan lesson, where an insane amount money was plowed into a military riddled with corruption that folded without a fight once the US abandoned the area. On paper the Afghan forces were more numerous and better equipped, in reality most of those soldiers collected their pay checks and went home.

spwa4 2y ago
Ukraine's army and soldiers have done everything, above and beyond what could be expected of them, and none "collected their pay checks and went home".
- voidr 2y ago
  Well except that 200 000+ who did not feel like sacrificing themselves for a media stunt like Kursk or Krynky and decided to desert. Zelensky doesn't know where at least 100bn went, that's over half the amount they were given by the US, we didn't even ask about the EU funds. You can also look at a map and see that we are giving them money and they are losing ground, it's not working.
  - spwa4 2y ago
    But where do you get this info? This is bullshit. There are no 200k desertions, not even half that, even in the worst estimates. And because of immigration numbers in Europe ALONE we know for sure there are 1m desertions in Russia, from just the Russians that register as refugees in Europe. There were 100+km traffic jams JUST FROM DESERTERS LEAVING RUSSIA. Let's assume at least double that are in other destinations. That's 15 Russian desertions per Ukrainian if we take your numbers, something like 35 Russians deserting per Ukrainian if we take realistic numbers. I'm fucking trying to hire a Russian deserter. Interviewed him, currently trying to arrange a permit, getting info on what would be involved. For what a shit country it is Russians can be damn well educated, and obviously, are currently available for hire (with caveats of course) in Europe ... frankly at bargain prices even for Europe. There's a, now pretty famous, Russian deserter that was part of Putin's IT team [1]. There's a famous Russian deserter from the Nuclear weapons team [2]. There's desertions of Kremlin insiders [3]. As for the losing ground ... everyone was sure Russia was going to beat the Ukrainian army and government in 3 days. Then it was definitely not going to take 2 weeks, and now Russia's entire army is in shambles, Ukraine is executing areal attacks against Russian fucking air defence with Cessna "rockets", and that works! There's reports, with video of Russia's army having entirely run out of equipment, using golf carts as armored vehicles. And yes, Ukraine works by the general tactic of retreating 100 meters leaving a trap, having Russia sacrifice WAY too much dealing with the trap, retreating another 100 meters. As for the money, aside from the amount quoted being bullshit, the 150 billion dollars that US + EU loaned combined in trade for destroying the Russian army? That's cheap. In fact those amounts are loans, being spent largely in the US, to be repaid by the Ukrainian government. 70% or so is a direct stimulus for the US economy, paid by Ukraine, if they win. It would be cheap even if it was a gift to Ukraine, but it's not. By contrast, just the Russian actions in the Baltic seas, cutting internet cables are estimated to cost 2+ billion. In other words it's not even possible to avoid spending it. And those damages are NOT loans. We will be paying for that, one way or another, out of pocket, nobody will pay anyone back for that. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/05/russian-defector-sheds-light-on-putin-paranoia-including-secret-train https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/05/russian-defect... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9dl2pv0yj0o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9dl2pv0yj0o [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/23/putin-adviser-anatoly-chubais-quits-leaves-russia-invasion-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/23/putin-adviser-...
    - voidr 2y ago
      Emigration or fleeing is not desertion, if you leave a country before being part of the army, you have fled the country but you did not desert. You have to be part of a military unit to have the ability to desert. You can look at Ukrainian sources about the desertion problem, there are videos of actual Ukrainian soldiers and commanders talking about this, they made laws around this issue. > Russia's entire army is in shambles, Ukraine is executing areal attacks against Russian fucking air defence with Cessna "rockets", and that works! There's reports, with video of Russia's army having entirely run out of equipment, using golf carts as armored vehicles. > And yes, Ukraine works by the general tactic of retreating 100 meters leaving a trap, having Russia sacrifice WAY too much dealing with the trap, retreating another 100 meters. So are the maps that I'm looking at all fake(including the Ukrainian ones) or the Russian army that is in shambles is till beating the Ukrainian army? > As for the money, aside from the amount quoted being bullshit The 100bn came from Zelensky, so is he saying bullshit? > the 150 billion dollars that US + EU loaned combined I'm pretty sure the US alone has sent more than 150, but it doesn't matter because it would make the situation look even worse. > trade for destroying the Russian army For a destroyed army they are gaining a lot of ground, I'm afraid to even think about what would a not-destroyed Russian army would be capable of. > be repaid by the Ukrainian government. 70% or so is a direct stimulus for the US economy, paid by Ukraine, if they win Even if they win, they won't have an economy to pay it back. > It would be cheap even if it was a gift to Ukraine, but it's not. It is a gift because the likelihood of Ukraine ever paying it back is one the same level of Hawk Tuah Coin gaining back it's value. It's not cheap because it didn't accomplish much. > By contrast, just the Russian actions in the Baltic seas, cutting internet cables are estimated to cost 2+ billion. You do realise that the Baltic sea is far away from Ukraine and even if Russia loses the war they can still send submarines there right? --- I recommend you look at factual accounts of what is actually happening, you can look at multiple sources to minise bias and you should be open to the possibility that your favourite news outlets might not be completely honest with the way they are presenting things because their reporting does not line up with all the facts. Even if I accept all your beliefs about Putin and Russia, I can still say that most of the money given was wasted compared to spending it on the European side of NATO.
      - 2y ago

by voidr 2y ago

spwa4 2y ago

Ukraine's army and soldiers have done everything, above and beyond what could be expected of them, and none "collected their pay checks and went home".

voidr 2y ago
Well except that 200 000+ who did not feel like sacrificing themselves for a media stunt like Kursk or Krynky and decided to desert. Zelensky doesn't know where at least 100bn went, that's over half the amount they were given by the US, we didn't even ask about the EU funds. You can also look at a map and see that we are giving them money and they are losing ground, it's not working.
- spwa4 2y ago
  But where do you get this info? This is bullshit. There are no 200k desertions, not even half that, even in the worst estimates. And because of immigration numbers in Europe ALONE we know for sure there are 1m desertions in Russia, from just the Russians that register as refugees in Europe. There were 100+km traffic jams JUST FROM DESERTERS LEAVING RUSSIA. Let's assume at least double that are in other destinations. That's 15 Russian desertions per Ukrainian if we take your numbers, something like 35 Russians deserting per Ukrainian if we take realistic numbers. I'm fucking trying to hire a Russian deserter. Interviewed him, currently trying to arrange a permit, getting info on what would be involved. For what a shit country it is Russians can be damn well educated, and obviously, are currently available for hire (with caveats of course) in Europe ... frankly at bargain prices even for Europe. There's a, now pretty famous, Russian deserter that was part of Putin's IT team [1]. There's a famous Russian deserter from the Nuclear weapons team [2]. There's desertions of Kremlin insiders [3]. As for the losing ground ... everyone was sure Russia was going to beat the Ukrainian army and government in 3 days. Then it was definitely not going to take 2 weeks, and now Russia's entire army is in shambles, Ukraine is executing areal attacks against Russian fucking air defence with Cessna "rockets", and that works! There's reports, with video of Russia's army having entirely run out of equipment, using golf carts as armored vehicles. And yes, Ukraine works by the general tactic of retreating 100 meters leaving a trap, having Russia sacrifice WAY too much dealing with the trap, retreating another 100 meters. As for the money, aside from the amount quoted being bullshit, the 150 billion dollars that US + EU loaned combined in trade for destroying the Russian army? That's cheap. In fact those amounts are loans, being spent largely in the US, to be repaid by the Ukrainian government. 70% or so is a direct stimulus for the US economy, paid by Ukraine, if they win. It would be cheap even if it was a gift to Ukraine, but it's not. By contrast, just the Russian actions in the Baltic seas, cutting internet cables are estimated to cost 2+ billion. In other words it's not even possible to avoid spending it. And those damages are NOT loans. We will be paying for that, one way or another, out of pocket, nobody will pay anyone back for that. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/05/russian-defector-sheds-light-on-putin-paranoia-including-secret-train https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/05/russian-defect... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9dl2pv0yj0o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9dl2pv0yj0o [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/23/putin-adviser-anatoly-chubais-quits-leaves-russia-invasion-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/23/putin-adviser-...
  - voidr 2y ago
    Emigration or fleeing is not desertion, if you leave a country before being part of the army, you have fled the country but you did not desert. You have to be part of a military unit to have the ability to desert. You can look at Ukrainian sources about the desertion problem, there are videos of actual Ukrainian soldiers and commanders talking about this, they made laws around this issue. > Russia's entire army is in shambles, Ukraine is executing areal attacks against Russian fucking air defence with Cessna "rockets", and that works! There's reports, with video of Russia's army having entirely run out of equipment, using golf carts as armored vehicles. > And yes, Ukraine works by the general tactic of retreating 100 meters leaving a trap, having Russia sacrifice WAY too much dealing with the trap, retreating another 100 meters. So are the maps that I'm looking at all fake(including the Ukrainian ones) or the Russian army that is in shambles is till beating the Ukrainian army? > As for the money, aside from the amount quoted being bullshit The 100bn came from Zelensky, so is he saying bullshit? > the 150 billion dollars that US + EU loaned combined I'm pretty sure the US alone has sent more than 150, but it doesn't matter because it would make the situation look even worse. > trade for destroying the Russian army For a destroyed army they are gaining a lot of ground, I'm afraid to even think about what would a not-destroyed Russian army would be capable of. > be repaid by the Ukrainian government. 70% or so is a direct stimulus for the US economy, paid by Ukraine, if they win Even if they win, they won't have an economy to pay it back. > It would be cheap even if it was a gift to Ukraine, but it's not. It is a gift because the likelihood of Ukraine ever paying it back is one the same level of Hawk Tuah Coin gaining back it's value. It's not cheap because it didn't accomplish much. > By contrast, just the Russian actions in the Baltic seas, cutting internet cables are estimated to cost 2+ billion. You do realise that the Baltic sea is far away from Ukraine and even if Russia loses the war they can still send submarines there right? --- I recommend you look at factual accounts of what is actually happening, you can look at multiple sources to minise bias and you should be open to the possibility that your favourite news outlets might not be completely honest with the way they are presenting things because their reporting does not line up with all the facts. Even if I accept all your beliefs about Putin and Russia, I can still say that most of the money given was wasted compared to spending it on the European side of NATO.
    - 2y ago