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> if that means you will be uncompetitive in the new emerging world. (…) There is a difference between being careful and being fearful. I’m so sick of that wor

by latexr 2y ago

> if that means you will be uncompetitive in the new emerging world. (…) There is a difference between being careful and being fearful. I’m so sick of that word. “You need to be competitive”, “you need to innovate”. Bullshit. You want to talk about fear? “Competitiveness” and “innovation” are the words the unscrupulous people at the top use to instil fear on everyone else and run rampant. They’re not being competitive or innovative, they’re sucking you dry of as much value as they can. We all need to take a breath. Stop and think for a moment. You can literally eat food which grows from the ground and make a shelter with a handful of planks and nails. Humanity survived and thrived before all this unfettered consumption, we don’t need to kill ourselves for more. https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> “Competitiveness” and “innovation” are the words the unscrupulous people at the top use to instil fear on everyone else and run rampant If a society is okay accepting a lower standard of living and sovereign subservience, then sure, competition doesn't matter. But if America and China have AI and nukes and Europe doesn't, one side gets to call the shots and the other has to listen.
- latexr 2y ago
  > a lower standard of living We better start really defining what that means, because it has become quite clear that all this “progress” is not leading to better lives. We’re literally going to kill ourselves with climate change. > AI and nukes Those two things aren’t remotely comparable.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > it has become quite clear that all this “progress” is not leading to better lives How do you think the average person under 50 would poll on being teleported to the 1950s? No phones, no internet, jet travel is only for the elite, oh nuclear war and MAD are new cultural concepts, yippee, and fuck you if you're black because the civil rights acts are still a decade out. > two things aren’t remotely comparable I'm assuming no AGI, just massive economic efficiencies. In that sense, nuclear weapons give strategic autonomy through military coercion and the ability to grant a security umbrella, which fosters e.g. trade ties. In the same way, the wealth from an AI-boosted economy fosters similar trade ties (and creates similar costs for disengaging). America doesn't influence Europe by threatening to nuke it, but by threatening not to nuke its enemies.
    - latexr 2y ago
      > on being teleported to the 1950s? That’s not the argument. At all. I argued we should rethink our attitude of unfettered consumption so we don’t continue on an path which is provably leading to destruction and death, and your take is going back in time to nuclear war and overt racism. That is frankly insane. I’m not fetishising “the old days”, I’m saying this attitude of “more more more” does not automatically translate to “better”.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        You said "all this 'progress' is not leading to better lives." That implies lives were better or at least as good before "all this 'progress'." If you say Room A is not better than Room B, then you should be, at the very least, indifferent to swapping between them. If you're against it, then Room A is better than Room B. Our lives are better--civically, militarily and materially--than they were before. Complaining about unfettered consumerism by falsely claiming our lives are worse today than they were before doesn't support your argument. (It's further undercut by the falling material and energy intensity of GDP in the rich world. We're able to produce more value for less input resource-wise.)
        latexr 2y ago
        > You said "all this 'progress' is not leading to better lives." That implies lives were better or at least as good before "all this 'progress'." No. There is a reason I put the word in quotes. We are on a thread, the conversation follows from what came before. My original post was explicit about words used to bullshit us. I was specifically referring to what the “unscrupulous people at the top” call “progress”, which doesn’t truly progress humanity or enhances the lives of most people, only theirs.
        vladms 2y ago
        There are many people claiming many things. Not sure which "top" you are referring to, but everybody at the end of a chain (most rich, most political powerful, most popular), generally are selected for being unscrupulous. So not sure why you should ever trust what they say... If you agree, just ignore what most of what those say and find other people to listen to for interesting things. To give a tech example, not many people were listening to Stallman and Linus and they still managed to change a lot for the better.
zoogeny 2y ago
I live in a ruralish area. There is a lot of forested area and due to economic depression there are a lot of people living in the woods. Most live in tents but some actually cut down the trees and turn them into make-shift shacks. Using planks and nails like you suggest. They often drag propane burners into the woods which often leads to fires. Perhaps this is what you mean? In reality, most people will continue to live the modern life where there are doctors, accountants, veterinarians, mechanics. We'll continue to enjoy food distribution and grocery stores. We'll all hope that North America gets its act together and build high speed rail so we can travel comfortably for long distances. There was a time Canada was a big exporter of engineering technology. From mining to agriculture, satellites, and nuclear technology. I want Canada to be competitive in these ways, not making makeshift shacks out of planks and nails for junkies that have given up on life and live in the woods.
- latexr 2y ago
  > They often drag propane burners into the woods which often leads to fires. Perhaps this is what you mean? I believe you very well know it’s not, and are transparently arguing in bad faith. > shacks (…) for junkies that have given up on life The insults you’ve chosen are quite telling. Not everyone living in a way you disapprove of is an automatic junky.
  - zoogeny 2y ago
    You stated one ludicrous extreme (food comes out of the ground! shelter is planks and nails!) and I stated another ludicrous extreme. You can make my position look simplistic and I can make your position look simplistic. You can't then cry foul. You are also assuming, in bad faith, an "all" where I did not place one. It is an undeniable fact with evidence beyond any reasonable doubt, including police reports and documented studies by the district, that the makeshift shacks in the rural woods near my house are made by drug addicts that are eschewing the readily available social housing for the specific reason that they can't go to that housing due to its explicit restrictions on drug use.
    - latexr 2y ago
Henchman21 2y ago
This may resonate with you: https://crimethinc.com/2018/09/03/the-mythology-of-work-eight-myths-that-keep-your-eyes-on-the-clock-and-your-nose-to-the-grindstone https://crimethinc.com/2018/09/03/the-mythology-of-work-eigh...
yibg 2y ago
When does that competitiveness and innovation stop though? If they stopped 100 years ago where would we be today as a species and is that better or worse than today? How about 1000 years ago? We face issues (like we always have), but I'd argue quite strongly that the competitiveness in our history and drive to invent and innovate has led to where we are today and it's a good thing.

by latexr 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> “Competitiveness” and “innovation” are the words the unscrupulous people at the top use to instil fear on everyone else and run rampant If a society is okay accepting a lower standard of living and sovereign subservience, then sure, competition doesn't matter. But if America and China have AI and nukes and Europe doesn't, one side gets to call the shots and the other has to listen.

latexr 2y ago
> a lower standard of living We better start really defining what that means, because it has become quite clear that all this “progress” is not leading to better lives. We’re literally going to kill ourselves with climate change. > AI and nukes Those two things aren’t remotely comparable.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > it has become quite clear that all this “progress” is not leading to better lives How do you think the average person under 50 would poll on being teleported to the 1950s? No phones, no internet, jet travel is only for the elite, oh nuclear war and MAD are new cultural concepts, yippee, and fuck you if you're black because the civil rights acts are still a decade out. > two things aren’t remotely comparable I'm assuming no AGI, just massive economic efficiencies. In that sense, nuclear weapons give strategic autonomy through military coercion and the ability to grant a security umbrella, which fosters e.g. trade ties. In the same way, the wealth from an AI-boosted economy fosters similar trade ties (and creates similar costs for disengaging). America doesn't influence Europe by threatening to nuke it, but by threatening not to nuke its enemies.
  - latexr 2y ago
    > on being teleported to the 1950s? That’s not the argument. At all. I argued we should rethink our attitude of unfettered consumption so we don’t continue on an path which is provably leading to destruction and death, and your take is going back in time to nuclear war and overt racism. That is frankly insane. I’m not fetishising “the old days”, I’m saying this attitude of “more more more” does not automatically translate to “better”.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      You said "all this 'progress' is not leading to better lives." That implies lives were better or at least as good before "all this 'progress'." If you say Room A is not better than Room B, then you should be, at the very least, indifferent to swapping between them. If you're against it, then Room A is better than Room B. Our lives are better--civically, militarily and materially--than they were before. Complaining about unfettered consumerism by falsely claiming our lives are worse today than they were before doesn't support your argument. (It's further undercut by the falling material and energy intensity of GDP in the rich world. We're able to produce more value for less input resource-wise.)
      - latexr 2y ago
        > You said "all this 'progress' is not leading to better lives." That implies lives were better or at least as good before "all this 'progress'." No. There is a reason I put the word in quotes. We are on a thread, the conversation follows from what came before. My original post was explicit about words used to bullshit us. I was specifically referring to what the “unscrupulous people at the top” call “progress”, which doesn’t truly progress humanity or enhances the lives of most people, only theirs.
        vladms 2y ago
        There are many people claiming many things. Not sure which "top" you are referring to, but everybody at the end of a chain (most rich, most political powerful, most popular), generally are selected for being unscrupulous. So not sure why you should ever trust what they say... If you agree, just ignore what most of what those say and find other people to listen to for interesting things. To give a tech example, not many people were listening to Stallman and Linus and they still managed to change a lot for the better.

zoogeny 2y ago

I live in a ruralish area. There is a lot of forested area and due to economic depression there are a lot of people living in the woods. Most live in tents but some actually cut down the trees and turn them into make-shift shacks. Using planks and nails like you suggest. They often drag propane burners into the woods which often leads to fires. Perhaps this is what you mean? In reality, most people will continue to live the modern life where there are doctors, accountants, veterinarians, mechanics. We'll continue to enjoy food distribution and grocery stores. We'll all hope that North America gets its act together and build high speed rail so we can travel comfortably for long distances. There was a time Canada was a big exporter of engineering technology. From mining to agriculture, satellites, and nuclear technology. I want Canada to be competitive in these ways, not making makeshift shacks out of planks and nails for junkies that have given up on life and live in the woods.

latexr 2y ago
> They often drag propane burners into the woods which often leads to fires. Perhaps this is what you mean? I believe you very well know it’s not, and are transparently arguing in bad faith. > shacks (…) for junkies that have given up on life The insults you’ve chosen are quite telling. Not everyone living in a way you disapprove of is an automatic junky.
- zoogeny 2y ago
  You stated one ludicrous extreme (food comes out of the ground! shelter is planks and nails!) and I stated another ludicrous extreme. You can make my position look simplistic and I can make your position look simplistic. You can't then cry foul. You are also assuming, in bad faith, an "all" where I did not place one. It is an undeniable fact with evidence beyond any reasonable doubt, including police reports and documented studies by the district, that the makeshift shacks in the rural woods near my house are made by drug addicts that are eschewing the readily available social housing for the specific reason that they can't go to that housing due to its explicit restrictions on drug use.
  - latexr 2y ago

Henchman21 2y ago

This may resonate with you: https://crimethinc.com/2018/09/03/the-mythology-of-work-eight-myths-that-keep-your-eyes-on-the-clock-and-your-nose-to-the-grindstone https://crimethinc.com/2018/09/03/the-mythology-of-work-eigh...

yibg 2y ago

When does that competitiveness and innovation stop though? If they stopped 100 years ago where would we be today as a species and is that better or worse than today? How about 1000 years ago? We face issues (like we always have), but I'd argue quite strongly that the competitiveness in our history and drive to invent and innovate has led to where we are today and it's a good thing.