7 ms·

Irrelevant to whom? Toyota, Honda and Subaru all have lifelong customers and for good reason. The cars often last for 20+ years with minimal upkeep. The curr

Irrelevant to whom? Toyota, Honda and Subaru all have lifelong customers and for good reason. The cars often last for 20+ years with minimal upkeep. The current crop of Chinese electric car makers are all trying to fake it until one of them makes it and the money spigot keeping them afloat will eventually get turned off at some point.[0] Good luck keeping that flashy EV running when the company goes bust. [0]https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-evs-losses-widen-despite-record-sales-competition-price-cuts-2024-11?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-evs-losses-widen-des...

potato3732842 2y ago
All cars last 20+yr if you give a crap unless they have some fundamental engineering or execution Achilles heel (ecoboost water pump, Toyota frame rust, Hyundai engine problems, etc) that will manifest as a comically not-economical repair when the vehicle is old enough in age to be of fairly low value. Premium cars that aren't so premium as to be disposable (i.e. not a luxury car you're gonna trade in every 3-5yr like clockwork) always last really well because people who can afford nice things can generally afford to maintain them. This is pretty clearly borne out when you compare same cars across brand e.g. Ford Lincoln Mercury panther platform cars) or look at the exceptions like all those objectively terrible northstar caddilacs and v12 Jags and whatnot that are in impeccable shape because they got used and maintained nicely for a decade before being "retired" to the garage of the owner's vacation property on Cape Cod or perhaps the Hamptons or compare airport people moving vans that were retired to church group service to work vans that got sold down the river to even harder service. It's really easy to "well we really should sell a water pump while we're in here for your 100k timing service" on a Subaru owned by someone who can afford a Subaru vs selling a preventative transmission fluid change to the guy who could barely scrape together the down payment on a Sentra. I'm being a little sloppy and leaving some loose ends and room for nitpicking jerks to wedge in but I think the point here is pretty clear.
- Zardoz84 2y ago
  I have a Nissan Micra from 1998, working fine. Great little car. I inherited from my grandfather.
  - ehnto 2y ago
    I have driven nothing but pre-2008 Nissans for about 20 years. Not a single major failure across 6 vehicles, except one Nissan Silvia (1992) that I used to race. Not really it's fault, I blew the motor pushing it hard for 3 years. I also crashed my first Silvia into a tree at 16, but it was running fine before that. That's how it got to the tree! Even the 2007 Pathfinder and current 2003 Stagea are rock solid, and I consider them post-peak for Nissan.
- asdff 2y ago
  Easily the biggest killer for most people in the continental US is winter road salt. You go to California and a decent fraction of people people are still driving the same 80s and 90s corollas in whatever condition at this point. That car was totalled decades ago in the northeast, and if it still exist you are liable to fall through the floorpan.
r00fus 2y ago
Amazing you feel that EVs are somehow more maintenance than ICEs. There exist EVs that have never had any manufacturer/dealer input since the day they rolled off the lot. Tesla/Nio are a bad examples - many EVs were built to be sold and essentially ignored by the manufacturer.
- onlypassingthru 2y ago
  After that EV company goes out of business, how are you going to replace that bespoke {$random_part} that broke? Any Fisker Ocean owners want to chime in?[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Ocean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Ocean
  - dkjaudyeqooe 2y ago
    Never mind the parts, how do you get your firmware updated without being held hostage?
  - r00fus 2y ago
    You don't. You buy from a large vehicle manufacturer like Ford, Kia, etc. where they have commitment to parts delivery for the foreseeable future. Fisker was always a scam if you remember back from days of Fisker Karma.
    - olyjohn 2y ago
      Do the big companies really have a commitment to parts delivery anymore, or are they following the same trend? Took my friend 9 months to get a part for his C8 Corvette when it got rear ended at 5mph. Tons of other GM owners have been waiting months to nearly a year for many common parts for repairs. Selling parts doesn't make these companies money, so why should they care? As long as they're making enough to sell the new cars first.
      - r00fus 2y ago
        I will say a couple of things: * my Ford Focus EV had a very short lead time for parts because it was based on a platform (Focus) shared across many vehicles. Also repair cost was very low for a multi-car accident ($2k). * Similarly, when common tech is spread across many vehicles (Kia/Hyundai eGMP or GM Ultium) those components are often easier to acquire. Buying low-volume vehicles or from smaller manufacturers is a recipe for long wait times and expensive repairs. How many Corvettes does GM sell?
tpm 2y ago
They have lifelong customers, but those also don't live forever and can change their opinion, and if the carmakers don't adapt, they won't survive. For the last 19 years we have been buying Toyota, but I'm slowly starting to look for a new car and it has to be an EV and Toyota is currently very underwhelming in that regard in our market.
- kridsdale1 2y ago
  Meanwhile I bought a 2024 Toyota that gets 10mpg and I fucking love it.
  - metadat 2y ago
    Which 2024 Toyota gets 10mpg? For example, the formerly beefcake Landcruiser went from a beastly guzzling v8 in 2021 to a weaker v6 in 2022-2023, and now, in 2024, a weak 2.4L supercharged 4-cyl sipper. R.I.P. Landcruiser of old, you were an ultimate vehicle in your category.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - gottorf 2y ago
      If you drive a new Tundra or 4runner with a lead foot in the city, you're probably going to get 10-ish mpg. Of course, that's just talking about stock vehicles. Plenty of modifications you can do a car to make it less fuel-efficient ;-)
  - tpm 2y ago
    Good for you, not so good for the climate, but we get our oil from Putin and I'd rather not to.
  - Toutouxc 2y ago
    I honestly don't understand how anyone can not be ashamed talking about their car getting 10 MPG.
crowcroft 2y ago
New car purchasing behaviour follows the law of double jeopardy. ie. Toyota has high repeat purchase rates because it has high market share, not because of loyal customers.
- protocolture 2y ago
  At least until the last 10 years people would try and sell Toyota on safety and reliability. People who wanted to extract every cent out of the cars life would get a toyota because it would legit go the distance without failure. Dealer told me that it doesnt hold true anymore due to electronics. But old corollas are still legendarily reliable first cars for teenagers. And I recall the used market for old hiluxes is beyond belief.
  - crowcroft 2y ago
    Second hard markets for second hand cars a little bit different, reliable cars end up having higher loyalty through selection bias since they simply exist longer though. Toyota doesn't really make money on a Hilux after the first sale though.
    - protocolture 2y ago
      True, but they sell fleets on that (now out of date) understanding of reliability.
  - Toutouxc 2y ago
    > it doesnt hold true anymore due to electronics I'm only in my thirties, but I've been hearing this exact (!) sentence, about every single brand, throughout my entire life. Surprisingly, most of the brands are still fine and selling cars.
    - thmsths 2y ago
      I keep hearing that too and it feels like a huge attribution error: the cars die because of the electronics because they are the new component with the shortest lifespan, so people blame them. Yet people fail to notice that the longevity of cars is on average, trending up while the amount of electronics in them has exploded. And it makes sense if you think about it for more than a second: which would you rather die first, the cheap electronic board/sensor or the expensive mechanical part?

potato3732842 2y ago

All cars last 20+yr if you give a crap unless they have some fundamental engineering or execution Achilles heel (ecoboost water pump, Toyota frame rust, Hyundai engine problems, etc) that will manifest as a comically not-economical repair when the vehicle is old enough in age to be of fairly low value. Premium cars that aren't so premium as to be disposable (i.e. not a luxury car you're gonna trade in every 3-5yr like clockwork) always last really well because people who can afford nice things can generally afford to maintain them. This is pretty clearly borne out when you compare same cars across brand e.g. Ford Lincoln Mercury panther platform cars) or look at the exceptions like all those objectively terrible northstar caddilacs and v12 Jags and whatnot that are in impeccable shape because they got used and maintained nicely for a decade before being "retired" to the garage of the owner's vacation property on Cape Cod or perhaps the Hamptons or compare airport people moving vans that were retired to church group service to work vans that got sold down the river to even harder service. It's really easy to "well we really should sell a water pump while we're in here for your 100k timing service" on a Subaru owned by someone who can afford a Subaru vs selling a preventative transmission fluid change to the guy who could barely scrape together the down payment on a Sentra. I'm being a little sloppy and leaving some loose ends and room for nitpicking jerks to wedge in but I think the point here is pretty clear.

Zardoz84 2y ago
I have a Nissan Micra from 1998, working fine. Great little car. I inherited from my grandfather.
- ehnto 2y ago
  I have driven nothing but pre-2008 Nissans for about 20 years. Not a single major failure across 6 vehicles, except one Nissan Silvia (1992) that I used to race. Not really it's fault, I blew the motor pushing it hard for 3 years. I also crashed my first Silvia into a tree at 16, but it was running fine before that. That's how it got to the tree! Even the 2007 Pathfinder and current 2003 Stagea are rock solid, and I consider them post-peak for Nissan.
asdff 2y ago
Easily the biggest killer for most people in the continental US is winter road salt. You go to California and a decent fraction of people people are still driving the same 80s and 90s corollas in whatever condition at this point. That car was totalled decades ago in the northeast, and if it still exist you are liable to fall through the floorpan.

r00fus 2y ago

Amazing you feel that EVs are somehow more maintenance than ICEs. There exist EVs that have never had any manufacturer/dealer input since the day they rolled off the lot. Tesla/Nio are a bad examples - many EVs were built to be sold and essentially ignored by the manufacturer.

onlypassingthru 2y ago
After that EV company goes out of business, how are you going to replace that bespoke {$random_part} that broke? Any Fisker Ocean owners want to chime in?[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Ocean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Ocean
- dkjaudyeqooe 2y ago
  Never mind the parts, how do you get your firmware updated without being held hostage?
- r00fus 2y ago
  You don't. You buy from a large vehicle manufacturer like Ford, Kia, etc. where they have commitment to parts delivery for the foreseeable future. Fisker was always a scam if you remember back from days of Fisker Karma.
  - olyjohn 2y ago
    Do the big companies really have a commitment to parts delivery anymore, or are they following the same trend? Took my friend 9 months to get a part for his C8 Corvette when it got rear ended at 5mph. Tons of other GM owners have been waiting months to nearly a year for many common parts for repairs. Selling parts doesn't make these companies money, so why should they care? As long as they're making enough to sell the new cars first.
    - r00fus 2y ago
      I will say a couple of things: * my Ford Focus EV had a very short lead time for parts because it was based on a platform (Focus) shared across many vehicles. Also repair cost was very low for a multi-car accident ($2k). * Similarly, when common tech is spread across many vehicles (Kia/Hyundai eGMP or GM Ultium) those components are often easier to acquire. Buying low-volume vehicles or from smaller manufacturers is a recipe for long wait times and expensive repairs. How many Corvettes does GM sell?

tpm 2y ago

They have lifelong customers, but those also don't live forever and can change their opinion, and if the carmakers don't adapt, they won't survive. For the last 19 years we have been buying Toyota, but I'm slowly starting to look for a new car and it has to be an EV and Toyota is currently very underwhelming in that regard in our market.

kridsdale1 2y ago
Meanwhile I bought a 2024 Toyota that gets 10mpg and I fucking love it.
- metadat 2y ago
  Which 2024 Toyota gets 10mpg? For example, the formerly beefcake Landcruiser went from a beastly guzzling v8 in 2021 to a weaker v6 in 2022-2023, and now, in 2024, a weak 2.4L supercharged 4-cyl sipper. R.I.P. Landcruiser of old, you were an ultimate vehicle in your category.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - gottorf 2y ago
    If you drive a new Tundra or 4runner with a lead foot in the city, you're probably going to get 10-ish mpg. Of course, that's just talking about stock vehicles. Plenty of modifications you can do a car to make it less fuel-efficient ;-)
- tpm 2y ago
  Good for you, not so good for the climate, but we get our oil from Putin and I'd rather not to.
- Toutouxc 2y ago
  I honestly don't understand how anyone can not be ashamed talking about their car getting 10 MPG.

crowcroft 2y ago

New car purchasing behaviour follows the law of double jeopardy. ie. Toyota has high repeat purchase rates because it has high market share, not because of loyal customers.

protocolture 2y ago
At least until the last 10 years people would try and sell Toyota on safety and reliability. People who wanted to extract every cent out of the cars life would get a toyota because it would legit go the distance without failure. Dealer told me that it doesnt hold true anymore due to electronics. But old corollas are still legendarily reliable first cars for teenagers. And I recall the used market for old hiluxes is beyond belief.
- crowcroft 2y ago
  Second hard markets for second hand cars a little bit different, reliable cars end up having higher loyalty through selection bias since they simply exist longer though. Toyota doesn't really make money on a Hilux after the first sale though.
  - protocolture 2y ago
    True, but they sell fleets on that (now out of date) understanding of reliability.
- Toutouxc 2y ago
  > it doesnt hold true anymore due to electronics I'm only in my thirties, but I've been hearing this exact (!) sentence, about every single brand, throughout my entire life. Surprisingly, most of the brands are still fine and selling cars.
  - thmsths 2y ago
    I keep hearing that too and it feels like a huge attribution error: the cars die because of the electronics because they are the new component with the shortest lifespan, so people blame them. Yet people fail to notice that the longevity of cars is on average, trending up while the amount of electronics in them has exploded. And it makes sense if you think about it for more than a second: which would you rather die first, the cheap electronic board/sensor or the expensive mechanical part?