5 ms·

I said you should reread it becuase you said “this is how the executive branch works” and the link shows that it is indeed not how it works since Elon does not

by sympil 2y ago

I said you should reread it becuase you said “this is how the executive branch works” and the link shows that it is indeed not how it works since Elon does not have the consent of the Senate and his position was not established by Congress or the Constitution. It was a polite way of saying you are wrong. Just because it has no precedence does not unconstitutional it make. Of course not. I did not say or imply otherwise. I said much of our system relies on following political norms. For example, it would have been perfectly Constitional for the last Congress to have removed the entire Supreme Court and replaced the justices. Such a constitutionally valid move would have had very bad implications.

nickburns 2y ago
"[The POTUS] shall have Power [ . . ] and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint [ . . . ] all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments."[1] At present Elon's position within the executive branch does not actually nor historically (for obvious reasons) require "Advice and Consent of the Senate", because no one that's part of DOGE, Elon included, is currently constitutionally interpreted to be an "Officer of the United States."[2] Nor has Congress bestowed upon the POTUS the exclusive authority to nominate and appoint whatever Elon's position is without their advice and conset. That's what the after-the-colon part is all about: whether or not the appointment of any "such inferior Officer"[3] whose position is not otherwise expressly provided for (like Elon's) is vested by an act of Congress in the POTUS not requiring their advice and consent—not whether or not any such position is actually 'established by Congress' as you say. That's exactly the point: Congress derives no appointment power from the Appointments Clause. Their role is limited to providing either constitutionally-required advice and consent, or vesting a direct appointment power not requiring their advice and consent in the POTUS. That being said, if the executive branch does something novel, like create and appoint thereto a position (or even an entire department) that didn't exist previously, then certainly that act may be ripe for constitutional challenge under the Appointments Clause. That is squarely one of the primary constiutional issues with what Elon and DOGE are doing, and that would be squarely for the SCOTUS to interpret. Just curious since I don't think I've heard this argument before—from where in the Constitution do you interpret that "it would have been perfectly Constitutional for the last Congress to have removed the entire Supreme Court and replaced the justices"? [1] https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/article-2/#article-2-section-2-clause-2 https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/article-2/#ar... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_of_the_United_States [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appointments_Clause#Appointment_of_inferior_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appointments_Clause#Appointmen...
- sympil 2y ago
  From lawyers I’ve talked to the Supreme Court has give the House wide lattitude on what it considers impeachable behavior. From Wikipedia: Defendants challenged the use of these committees, claiming them to be a violation of their fair trial rights as this did not meet the constitutional requirement for their cases to be "tried by the Senate". Several impeached judges, including District Court Judge Walter Nixon, sought court intervention in their impeachment proceedings on these grounds. In Nixon v. United States (1993),[18] the Supreme Court determined that the federal judiciary could not review such proceedings, as matters related to impeachment trials are political questions and could not be resolved in the courts.[19] https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/article-1/section-2/clause-5/the-power-of-impeachment-overview https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/article-1/sec...
  - nickburns 2y ago
    *Latitude.
    - sympil 2y ago
      Very helpful.
- sympil 2y ago
  I did link to a lawyer who was an ethics counsel to a former a former President who disagress with you. You can nitpick however you want and construe whatever meaning you want from the language of existing laws and justify in your mind your point of view. There are even legal experts who foolishly think Presidents ought to enjoy a broad amount of immunity from prosecution. Likewise people can provide legal arguments for why you are wrong. Whatver the case there is no precedent for what is happening right now. The political norms have been upended and what is being done is contrary to how a large majority of people believe things are supposed to work. A new normal is being established and it is not a good thing. This is very unhealthy for the republic. Congressional power is being greatly limited and Presidential power greatly expanded. This is quite bad.

by sympil 2y ago

nickburns 2y ago

"[The POTUS] shall have Power [ . . ] and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint [ . . . ] all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments."[1] At present Elon's position within the executive branch does not actually nor historically (for obvious reasons) require "Advice and Consent of the Senate", because no one that's part of DOGE, Elon included, is currently constitutionally interpreted to be an "Officer of the United States."[2] Nor has Congress bestowed upon the POTUS the exclusive authority to nominate and appoint whatever Elon's position is without their advice and conset. That's what the after-the-colon part is all about: whether or not the appointment of any "such inferior Officer"[3] whose position is not otherwise expressly provided for (like Elon's) is vested by an act of Congress in the POTUS not requiring their advice and consent—not whether or not any such position is actually 'established by Congress' as you say. That's exactly the point: Congress derives no appointment power from the Appointments Clause. Their role is limited to providing either constitutionally-required advice and consent, or vesting a direct appointment power not requiring their advice and consent in the POTUS. That being said, if the executive branch does something novel, like create and appoint thereto a position (or even an entire department) that didn't exist previously, then certainly that act may be ripe for constitutional challenge under the Appointments Clause. That is squarely one of the primary constiutional issues with what Elon and DOGE are doing, and that would be squarely for the SCOTUS to interpret. Just curious since I don't think I've heard this argument before—from where in the Constitution do you interpret that "it would have been perfectly Constitutional for the last Congress to have removed the entire Supreme Court and replaced the justices"? [1] https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/article-2/#article-2-section-2-clause-2 https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/article-2/#ar... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_of_the_United_States [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appointments_Clause#Appointment_of_inferior_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appointments_Clause#Appointmen...

sympil 2y ago
From lawyers I’ve talked to the Supreme Court has give the House wide lattitude on what it considers impeachable behavior. From Wikipedia: Defendants challenged the use of these committees, claiming them to be a violation of their fair trial rights as this did not meet the constitutional requirement for their cases to be "tried by the Senate". Several impeached judges, including District Court Judge Walter Nixon, sought court intervention in their impeachment proceedings on these grounds. In Nixon v. United States (1993),[18] the Supreme Court determined that the federal judiciary could not review such proceedings, as matters related to impeachment trials are political questions and could not be resolved in the courts.[19] https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/article-1/section-2/clause-5/the-power-of-impeachment-overview https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/article-1/sec...
- nickburns 2y ago
  *Latitude.
  - sympil 2y ago
    Very helpful.
sympil 2y ago
I did link to a lawyer who was an ethics counsel to a former a former President who disagress with you. You can nitpick however you want and construe whatever meaning you want from the language of existing laws and justify in your mind your point of view. There are even legal experts who foolishly think Presidents ought to enjoy a broad amount of immunity from prosecution. Likewise people can provide legal arguments for why you are wrong. Whatver the case there is no precedent for what is happening right now. The political norms have been upended and what is being done is contrary to how a large majority of people believe things are supposed to work. A new normal is being established and it is not a good thing. This is very unhealthy for the republic. Congressional power is being greatly limited and Presidential power greatly expanded. This is quite bad.