6 ms·

The art of calling out room dynamics (2024)

62 points by wallflower 2y ago

rdtsc 2y ago
> Over time, you’ll develop an almost sixth sense for when an intervention is needed. You’ll become that person who can deftly guide conversations back on track when they’re derailing. > Overuse: If you’re constantly meta-commenting on the conversation, it can become distracting and annoying. Use this technique judiciously. Good point, glad it has the caution in there, or you'll quickly become that one person everyone knows read "that one HN post" and keeps doing that "one trick" every meeting. You see this with new leaders often, they read some book or the "top 10 leadership power poses and gestures" blog and start doing them. Except, it doesn't look natural and just seems cringy. They think it's a cool trick to mesmerize their audience, while everyone else is rolling their eyes literally or figuratively.
- _def 2y ago
  true; the focus really should be on sincerely caring about getting the group back on track. Needless to say (because the article already did) this is also something you need to practice to get good at, so there's a balance to strike
kruffalon 2y ago
This piece reminded me of a few things I think about a bit too much: - I imagine there would be almost zero storytelling (as we know it) if people where better at communicating like this (as most plots would just seem weird). - something about this made me think about bullying and how we haven't managed to "solve" that problem (for kids or adults) - there are a few corporate-speak words in the text that makes me question myself if I've failed to realise that this is a sarcastic piece, but I'm 95% sure it's an honest text with clear intentions. - I'm probably misremembering a lot, but I quite like how this expands a tiny bit on Non-Violent Communication to include the "we" that is so important in groups. [Edit] added the word "much" in the first paragraph.
- _def 2y ago
  As someone who can be a bit blind for social cues etc, care to elaborate a bit on "storytelling as we know it"? I have a hunch on what you mean but I'm uncertain
  - kusokurae 2y ago
    Most stories are built with a heavy reliance on using peoples fundamental unwillingness to communicate with other people in mind to manufacture conflict and therefore narrative progress. A majority of films and book plots, were they taken and rewritten by a person who rejects the idea that it's acceptable to expect others to read one's mind, would end partway into the story.
    - TylerE 2y ago
      Aka “the idiot plot” - where the entire issue at hand could be solved if any single main character stops acting like an idiot for 5 minutes and just says to the other character(s) what’s actually going on
      - exe34 2y ago
        I used to be the person who would always tell it as it is - it doesn't work in general, because often times people don't want to hear it. They treat it as a grievous bodily harm and they lash out in defence. small talk and euphemisms evolved for a good reason - you need to be able to judge what's going on in the other person's head before you risk exposing yourself to their wrath.
        kruffalon 2y ago
        There are different ways to say the same thing and using language like in the linked article often allows people to listen better and not get defensive. I find that using "softer" language, since it requires more work, also often sharpens my message to really say what I think is important. A bit like a rubber duck[0] for my inner script writer. ----- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
pm_details 2y ago
Much of this is a symptom of Corpo Talk. Corpo Talk avoids offending anyone, but may lead to the elephant in the room only getting discussed over beers later (WFH equivalent: 1:1 Zoom calls). Corpo Talk colors people after a while. Even some of this author's suggestions are beating around the bush. They advocate "naming what's happening" and then just as quickly walk that back to "Ask, Don’t Tell" and the perennially Corpo "we." Alternate title: "Folks, I've noticed we are calling out room dynamics? Do we think that's an art?"
- thworp 2y ago
  I agree with you, but using the word corpo to describe a very old phenomenon of society does not add to your argument.
  - pm_details 2y ago
    Corpo Talk is a recent phenomenon, but of course it has antecedents like everything else.
hosh 2y ago
The underlying principles and methods in here reminds me of Crucial Conversations and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I’m also glad to see a mention for how this can apply to personal relationships
mibes 2y ago
This kind of intervention can be useful in the right groups but (as with NVC) also provides great cloaking for natural manipulators. For example saying "there is a lot of raised emotion in the room" after an individual has blown their top is a very pointed and passive aggressive thing to do. They will feel even more targeted by the faux neutrality
bloomingkales 2y ago
Meetings are just a cult gathering. Generally, only the cult leaders are naturals in group settings. Everyone else just copies and tries to fit in (lurkers and contributors). The cult leaders will always be the same people, it's an archetype. The meeting goes as comfortably as the cult leaders allow (not necessarily through allowance, but through tone and expectations). The more you examine what a cult your company and industry is, the more you realize you have to be vigilant about human nature (in yourself and others). "leadership.garden" They give themselves away. "Picture this: You’re in a high-stakes product roadmap meeting. The room is a pressure cooker of competing priorities and barely concealed tension." These people are in fantasy world. NONE OF YOU have worked on anything high stakes, tech has always been non critical (mostly). But this how they think, and the take away they provide is how to be manipulative (like I said, they are naturals). That's the problem with the cult.
- emchammer 2y ago
  Omg.
- milesrout 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - marxisttemp 2y ago
    Out of curiosity, what is your role? Programmer, manager, or owner? If the first, you should consider where your allegiances lie and why you’re so frustrated by those who advocate for your working conditions.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwaway519 2y ago
      Why do you seek to paint poisonous lines?
strken 2y ago
Few notes on this: - To me it feels less like calling out the room dynamics, more like calling for a timeout or hitting the reset button - Just like hitting the reset button it's intentionally disruptive to do this, so don't abuse your meeting-halting privileges or people will start to ignore you - I'm pretty sure this is a part of normal human behaviour when de-escalating, and neither being in a meeting nor naming the dynamic is required to do it
nickdothutton 2y ago
If I found myself in a meeting where people were using phrases like "I’m sensing..." then I would probably find some different people to work with. A meeting is not a therapy session. Most of these meeting pathologies are due to a lack of competent leadership.

62 points by wallflower 2y ago

> Over time, you’ll develop an almost sixth sense for when an intervention is needed. You’ll become that person who can deftly guide conversations back on track when they’re derailing. > Overuse: If you’re constantly meta-commenting on the conversation, it can become distracting and annoying. Use this technique judiciously. Good point, glad it has the caution in there, or you'll quickly become that one person everyone knows read "that one HN post" and keeps doing that "one trick" every meeting. You see this with new leaders often, they read some book or the "top 10 leadership power poses and gestures" blog and start doing them. Except, it doesn't look natural and just seems cringy. They think it's a cool trick to mesmerize their audience, while everyone else is rolling their eyes literally or figuratively.

_def 2y ago
true; the focus really should be on sincerely caring about getting the group back on track. Needless to say (because the article already did) this is also something you need to practice to get good at, so there's a balance to strike

kruffalon 2y ago

This piece reminded me of a few things I think about a bit too much: - I imagine there would be almost zero storytelling (as we know it) if people where better at communicating like this (as most plots would just seem weird). - something about this made me think about bullying and how we haven't managed to "solve" that problem (for kids or adults) - there are a few corporate-speak words in the text that makes me question myself if I've failed to realise that this is a sarcastic piece, but I'm 95% sure it's an honest text with clear intentions. - I'm probably misremembering a lot, but I quite like how this expands a tiny bit on Non-Violent Communication to include the "we" that is so important in groups. [Edit] added the word "much" in the first paragraph.

_def 2y ago
As someone who can be a bit blind for social cues etc, care to elaborate a bit on "storytelling as we know it"? I have a hunch on what you mean but I'm uncertain
- kusokurae 2y ago
  Most stories are built with a heavy reliance on using peoples fundamental unwillingness to communicate with other people in mind to manufacture conflict and therefore narrative progress. A majority of films and book plots, were they taken and rewritten by a person who rejects the idea that it's acceptable to expect others to read one's mind, would end partway into the story.
  - TylerE 2y ago
    Aka “the idiot plot” - where the entire issue at hand could be solved if any single main character stops acting like an idiot for 5 minutes and just says to the other character(s) what’s actually going on
    - exe34 2y ago
      I used to be the person who would always tell it as it is - it doesn't work in general, because often times people don't want to hear it. They treat it as a grievous bodily harm and they lash out in defence. small talk and euphemisms evolved for a good reason - you need to be able to judge what's going on in the other person's head before you risk exposing yourself to their wrath.
      - kruffalon 2y ago
        There are different ways to say the same thing and using language like in the linked article often allows people to listen better and not get defensive. I find that using "softer" language, since it requires more work, also often sharpens my message to really say what I think is important. A bit like a rubber duck[0] for my inner script writer. ----- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

pm_details 2y ago

Much of this is a symptom of Corpo Talk. Corpo Talk avoids offending anyone, but may lead to the elephant in the room only getting discussed over beers later (WFH equivalent: 1:1 Zoom calls). Corpo Talk colors people after a while. Even some of this author's suggestions are beating around the bush. They advocate "naming what's happening" and then just as quickly walk that back to "Ask, Don’t Tell" and the perennially Corpo "we." Alternate title: "Folks, I've noticed we are calling out room dynamics? Do we think that's an art?"

thworp 2y ago
I agree with you, but using the word corpo to describe a very old phenomenon of society does not add to your argument.
- pm_details 2y ago
  Corpo Talk is a recent phenomenon, but of course it has antecedents like everything else.

hosh 2y ago

The underlying principles and methods in here reminds me of Crucial Conversations and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I’m also glad to see a mention for how this can apply to personal relationships

mibes 2y ago

This kind of intervention can be useful in the right groups but (as with NVC) also provides great cloaking for natural manipulators. For example saying "there is a lot of raised emotion in the room" after an individual has blown their top is a very pointed and passive aggressive thing to do. They will feel even more targeted by the faux neutrality

bloomingkales 2y ago

Meetings are just a cult gathering. Generally, only the cult leaders are naturals in group settings. Everyone else just copies and tries to fit in (lurkers and contributors). The cult leaders will always be the same people, it's an archetype. The meeting goes as comfortably as the cult leaders allow (not necessarily through allowance, but through tone and expectations). The more you examine what a cult your company and industry is, the more you realize you have to be vigilant about human nature (in yourself and others). "leadership.garden" They give themselves away. "Picture this: You’re in a high-stakes product roadmap meeting. The room is a pressure cooker of competing priorities and barely concealed tension." These people are in fantasy world. NONE OF YOU have worked on anything high stakes, tech has always been non critical (mostly). But this how they think, and the take away they provide is how to be manipulative (like I said, they are naturals). That's the problem with the cult.

emchammer 2y ago
Omg.
milesrout 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- marxisttemp 2y ago
  Out of curiosity, what is your role? Programmer, manager, or owner? If the first, you should consider where your allegiances lie and why you’re so frustrated by those who advocate for your working conditions.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway519 2y ago
    Why do you seek to paint poisonous lines?

strken 2y ago

Few notes on this: - To me it feels less like calling out the room dynamics, more like calling for a timeout or hitting the reset button - Just like hitting the reset button it's intentionally disruptive to do this, so don't abuse your meeting-halting privileges or people will start to ignore you - I'm pretty sure this is a part of normal human behaviour when de-escalating, and neither being in a meeting nor naming the dynamic is required to do it

nickdothutton 2y ago

If I found myself in a meeting where people were using phrases like "I’m sensing..." then I would probably find some different people to work with. A meeting is not a therapy session. Most of these meeting pathologies are due to a lack of competent leadership.