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From the "stunningly obvious" department... Seriously, college is practically useless for what people are using it for today (vocational training.) It was not

by gergles 14y ago

From the "stunningly obvious" department... Seriously, college is practically useless for what people are using it for today (vocational training.) It was not intended to serve that purpose. The reason that everyone started going to college was that lazy companies used BA degrees as entrance exams because being able to go to college used to be a proxy for 'good breeding'. Therefore, having a college degree was a sure ticket to get a(n office) job. Therefore, everyone started going to college. Therefore, a college degree became a checkbox requirement for a job, not anything that actually helps you get one.

varikin 14y ago
While I agree that college is a poor substitute for vocational training or an apprenticeship, I think it can provide a great benefit. For most, college is a stepping stone to being an adult. You are now making more decisions for yourself, meeting many new people, hopefully living with your peers instead of your parents. At the same time, college provides a fairly structured environment, go to class, study, take tests, have summer break, and do it again. This is similar to high school, but you have a lot more control. The college will help when you want it, but unless high school, they are more willing to not give a damn when you don't give a damn. With all this, there are all the generals that everyone hates. These are phenomenal. I wish I spent more time learning about history, languages, psychology, communication, and art (well I got that education by marrying an artist). Learning to program and the basics of math (I am calling anything less than abstract algebra basic math) and the basics of computer science theory (automota, grammars, etc) was worthwhile, but I have met enough self taught programmers that I don't think college is that special in this regards. Other industries might be different, especially more formal engineering ones like EE, but I could be wrong. No, all the other bits that rounded me out helped me the most to be who I am. I am not just a programmer and college helped that.
MrVitaliy 14y ago
I think companies started asking for BA degrees precisely because college education is readily available and almost everyone they are interested in has a degree. Yes, college is over-hyped, yes we're in tuition bubble not unlike the housing bubble from not-so-distant past but if most of the crop has college education and you're interested in hiring the cream of the crop, requiring a college degree is given.
- tokenadult 14y ago
  if most of the crop has college education and you're interested in hiring the cream of the crop, requiring a college degree is given I will agree with you that this is how many hiring managers think. I happen to know counterexamples (people who declined to finish college degree programs even though they were admitted to college on financial terms affordable with their family resources) who have nonetheless obtained paying work based on college-graduate-level skills they developed despite lack of a degree. But you correctly state the general state of mind of hiring managers. That said, the general state of mind of hiring managers is wrong. Preferring people with degrees to people who lack degrees is less supported by research than quite a few other hiring criteria. I last posted my FAQ for Hacker News on company hiring procedures http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768 seven days ago, so rather than repeat all those keystrokes here, allow me to say that hiring managers have more reliable criteria to look at for hiring job applicants than college degrees or any other kind of biographical data about the applicants. Check the FAQ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768 for more details.
  - aidenn0 14y ago
    Where I work we wouldn't fail to at least interview someone without a 4yr college degree with some form (formal or otherwise) of related experience. However, college degrees do have some advantages: From the POV of hiree: we recruit on college campuses because that's the only place you find any significant population of qualified people who don't already have full-time jobs. From the POV of hirer: GMA tests aren't allowed, but when hiring programmers, a CS general knowledge test is, and when comparing dozens of people who all went through exactly the same CS program, it's a pretty darn good proxy for a GMA test.
    - ericd 14y ago
      CS general knowledge tests of people going through the same program are not at all a good proxy for a GMA test - there is a lot of variance in how people actually go through the same program, even with the same grades. You can't abstract that down to a test and assume the difference is the result in a difference in intelligence.

by gergles 14y ago

varikin 14y ago

While I agree that college is a poor substitute for vocational training or an apprenticeship, I think it can provide a great benefit. For most, college is a stepping stone to being an adult. You are now making more decisions for yourself, meeting many new people, hopefully living with your peers instead of your parents. At the same time, college provides a fairly structured environment, go to class, study, take tests, have summer break, and do it again. This is similar to high school, but you have a lot more control. The college will help when you want it, but unless high school, they are more willing to not give a damn when you don't give a damn. With all this, there are all the generals that everyone hates. These are phenomenal. I wish I spent more time learning about history, languages, psychology, communication, and art (well I got that education by marrying an artist). Learning to program and the basics of math (I am calling anything less than abstract algebra basic math) and the basics of computer science theory (automota, grammars, etc) was worthwhile, but I have met enough self taught programmers that I don't think college is that special in this regards. Other industries might be different, especially more formal engineering ones like EE, but I could be wrong. No, all the other bits that rounded me out helped me the most to be who I am. I am not just a programmer and college helped that.

MrVitaliy 14y ago

I think companies started asking for BA degrees precisely because college education is readily available and almost everyone they are interested in has a degree. Yes, college is over-hyped, yes we're in tuition bubble not unlike the housing bubble from not-so-distant past but if most of the crop has college education and you're interested in hiring the cream of the crop, requiring a college degree is given.

tokenadult 14y ago
if most of the crop has college education and you're interested in hiring the cream of the crop, requiring a college degree is given I will agree with you that this is how many hiring managers think. I happen to know counterexamples (people who declined to finish college degree programs even though they were admitted to college on financial terms affordable with their family resources) who have nonetheless obtained paying work based on college-graduate-level skills they developed despite lack of a degree. But you correctly state the general state of mind of hiring managers. That said, the general state of mind of hiring managers is wrong. Preferring people with degrees to people who lack degrees is less supported by research than quite a few other hiring criteria. I last posted my FAQ for Hacker News on company hiring procedures http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768 seven days ago, so rather than repeat all those keystrokes here, allow me to say that hiring managers have more reliable criteria to look at for hiring job applicants than college degrees or any other kind of biographical data about the applicants. Check the FAQ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768 for more details.
- aidenn0 14y ago
  Where I work we wouldn't fail to at least interview someone without a 4yr college degree with some form (formal or otherwise) of related experience. However, college degrees do have some advantages: From the POV of hiree: we recruit on college campuses because that's the only place you find any significant population of qualified people who don't already have full-time jobs. From the POV of hirer: GMA tests aren't allowed, but when hiring programmers, a CS general knowledge test is, and when comparing dozens of people who all went through exactly the same CS program, it's a pretty darn good proxy for a GMA test.
  - ericd 14y ago
    CS general knowledge tests of people going through the same program are not at all a good proxy for a GMA test - there is a lot of variance in how people actually go through the same program, even with the same grades. You can't abstract that down to a test and assume the difference is the result in a difference in intelligence.