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The underlying problem of course is that recyclable and biodegradable properties are almost always at complete odds with durable, stability during use, chemical

by lazide 2y ago

The underlying problem of course is that recyclable and biodegradable properties are almost always at complete odds with durable, stability during use, chemically non-reactive.

blueflow 2y ago
This is a human issue. When in use, we expect the material to be durable. When we throw it away, we expect the material to decompose. We do not have materials that react to human intention.
- numpad0 2y ago
  But it is problematic when electrical insulations and personal ID cards start to decompose over the courses of 5-10 years.
tartoran 2y ago
Could be solved with a tax policy, durable plastics being made more expensive to encourage reuse and conversely biodegradable less durable plastic taxed less. Eventually things converge naturally towards an equilibrium.
- lazide 2y ago
  nah - you can’t have something which both resists degradation when exposed to food, the environment, etc. AND naturally biodegrades in a reasonable time. it’s like wanting a useful fuel which doesn’t burn. they mutually contradict each other.
PaulHoule 2y ago
I think the #1 concern about plastic waste are single-use plastics. For instance you might get takeout food in a polystyrene clamshell, foamed or not. Lately I noticed this product line https://www.healthychoice.com/cafe-steamers https://www.healthychoice.com/cafe-steamers which are some of the tastiest frozen meals on the market, but they not only come in a plastic bowl, but there are two layers of the plastic bowl, one of which is perforated to separate the sauce from the food so that the food gets steamed. Boy is there a lot of plastic. Thing is, these are all thermoplastics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic#Classifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic#Classifications unlike the thermoset plastic that this article is about. I mean, if you make a plastic bowl out of this thermoset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine_resin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine_resin and use it thousands of times the amount of waste generated is dramatically less than is generated by those steamers. The environmental risk people are most concerned out now is that some fraction of plastics are not recycled, burned, or landfilled and wind up in the environment where they get ground into microplastics. As much as people blame industry on blaming the consumer, it's a lot better to chuck plastic in the trash than to chuck it outdoors and a good idea to pick it up on the side of the road whenever you can. That black agricultural plastic is a disaster. (See also the risk of plastic car tires!)
- rob_lh 2y ago
  Adding some personal analysis to your point, the last time I looked at plastic market research in detail, the two biggest markets by volume and revenue were packaging and insulation, which I believe were dominated by thermoplastics. Those are the big ones if you want to make an impact on plastic usage. Also, pulling from memory that may not be quite right, but I recall roads taking a substantial amount of polymer additives and that tire degradation is a major source of microplastic exposure for humans. The tire problem is poised to get worse with EVs being so heavy and accelerating so hard that the tires are bigger and wear faster, but I'm not aware of even any promising research there besides more bio-based feedstocks to improve the sustainability.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    In building there is also a lot of use of PVC which is environmentally awful, for instance for flooring and siding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride#Health_and_safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride#Health_and_...

by lazide 2y ago

The underlying problem of course is that recyclable and biodegradable properties are almost always at complete odds with durable, stability during use, chemically non-reactive.

blueflow 2y ago

This is a human issue. When in use, we expect the material to be durable. When we throw it away, we expect the material to decompose. We do not have materials that react to human intention.

numpad0 2y ago
But it is problematic when electrical insulations and personal ID cards start to decompose over the courses of 5-10 years.

tartoran 2y ago

Could be solved with a tax policy, durable plastics being made more expensive to encourage reuse and conversely biodegradable less durable plastic taxed less. Eventually things converge naturally towards an equilibrium.

lazide 2y ago
nah - you can’t have something which both resists degradation when exposed to food, the environment, etc. AND naturally biodegrades in a reasonable time. it’s like wanting a useful fuel which doesn’t burn. they mutually contradict each other.

PaulHoule 2y ago

I think the #1 concern about plastic waste are single-use plastics. For instance you might get takeout food in a polystyrene clamshell, foamed or not. Lately I noticed this product line https://www.healthychoice.com/cafe-steamers https://www.healthychoice.com/cafe-steamers which are some of the tastiest frozen meals on the market, but they not only come in a plastic bowl, but there are two layers of the plastic bowl, one of which is perforated to separate the sauce from the food so that the food gets steamed. Boy is there a lot of plastic. Thing is, these are all thermoplastics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic#Classifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic#Classifications unlike the thermoset plastic that this article is about. I mean, if you make a plastic bowl out of this thermoset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine_resin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine_resin and use it thousands of times the amount of waste generated is dramatically less than is generated by those steamers. The environmental risk people are most concerned out now is that some fraction of plastics are not recycled, burned, or landfilled and wind up in the environment where they get ground into microplastics. As much as people blame industry on blaming the consumer, it's a lot better to chuck plastic in the trash than to chuck it outdoors and a good idea to pick it up on the side of the road whenever you can. That black agricultural plastic is a disaster. (See also the risk of plastic car tires!)

rob_lh 2y ago
Adding some personal analysis to your point, the last time I looked at plastic market research in detail, the two biggest markets by volume and revenue were packaging and insulation, which I believe were dominated by thermoplastics. Those are the big ones if you want to make an impact on plastic usage. Also, pulling from memory that may not be quite right, but I recall roads taking a substantial amount of polymer additives and that tire degradation is a major source of microplastic exposure for humans. The tire problem is poised to get worse with EVs being so heavy and accelerating so hard that the tires are bigger and wear faster, but I'm not aware of even any promising research there besides more bio-based feedstocks to improve the sustainability.
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  In building there is also a lot of use of PVC which is environmentally awful, for instance for flooring and siding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride#Health_and_safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride#Health_and_...