5 ms·

Is this the declaration? https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2025/02/11/pledge-for-a-trustworthy-ai-in-the-world-of-work https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron

by mrtksn 2y ago

Is this the declaration? https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2025/02/11/pledge-for-a-trustworthy-ai-in-the-world-of-work https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2025/02/11/pledge-for-... It appears to be essentially "We promise not to do evil" declaration. It contains things like "Ensure AI eliminates biases in recruitment and does not exclude underrepresented groups.". What's the point of rejecting this? Seems like a show, just like the declaration itself. Depending on what side of the things you are, if you don't actually take a look at it you might end up believing that US is planning to do evil and others want to eliminate evil or alternatively you might believe that US is pushing for progress when EU is trying to slow it down. Both appear false to me, IMHO its just another instance of US signing off from the global world and whatever "evil" US is planning to do China will do it better for cheaper anyway.

ExoticPearTree 2y ago
[flagged]
- jampekka 2y ago
  Inclusive here means that the population at large benefits. But I guess that's woke now too.
  - logicchains 2y ago
    It mentions "promoting diversity, tackling gender imbalances" which clearly indicates they're using "inclusive" in the woke sense of the word.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  US just needs to have their culture war done already. These words are not about the American petty fights but it appears that the new government is all for it. It's kind of fascinating actually how Americans turned the whole pop culture into genitalia regulations and racist wealth redistribution. Before that in EU we had all this stuff and wasn't a problem. These stuff were about minorities and minorities stuff don't bother most people as these are just accommodations for small number of people. I'm kind of getting sick and tired of pretending that stuff that concern %1 of the people are the mainstream thing. It's insufferable.
  - hcurtiss 2y ago
    It's because people see the manifestation of racism implicit in these policies affecting their daily lives. And they're done with it, no matter how much the elites hand-wave "what's the big deal?" The insufferability runs entirely the other direction.
    - layer8 2y ago
      That’s mainly an American phenomenon, however.
      - hcurtiss 2y ago
        I'm not so sure. The acceptance of mass migration is rooted in many of the same principles, and push-back on that issue is fundamentally reshaping the political landscape in the UK and Europe.
        Juliate 2y ago
        Is it? Not sure what some "politicians" (cough Farage) promised them would happen, happened. https://www.brunel.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/articles/Post-Brexit-UK-migration-trends-and-the-all-time-highs https://www.brunel.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/articles/Post-...
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        The rejection of woke ideals goes well beyond the US. The Japanese people also hate elements of woke getting into their culture and they don't even speak English.
        Juliate 2y ago
        What are you telling about exactly?
        Dalewyn 2y ago
- smolder 2y ago
  "woke and DEI phrases"? The way you're using these as labels is embarrassingly shallow, and I would hope, beneath the level of discourse here.
  - ExoticPearTree 2y ago
    It is not. And you must be new around here when it comes to the comments level.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - smolder 2y ago
      It definitely is shallow. It's on par with saying they used cringe language that is like, not a vibe. It doesn't mean anything concrete, and so it's impossible to rebuke and pointless to talk about.
      - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
        Do you mean this or the response to it? How does one respond to fluff like this? > AI’s workplace impact must align governance, social dialogue, innovation, trust, fairness, and public interest. We commit to advancing the AI Paris Summit agenda, reducing inequalities, promoting diversity, tackling gender imbalances, increasing training and human capital investment
  - stackedinserter 2y ago
    Exactly, I prefer to call them "racist and discriminatory" too.
- ben_w 2y ago
  > tackling gender imbalances This being culturally rejected by the same America that has itself twice rejected women candidates for president in favour of a man who now has 34 felony convictions, does not surprise me. But it does disappoint me. I remember when the right wing were complaining about Star Trek having a woman as a captain for the first time with Voyager. That there had already been women admirals on screen by that point suggested they had not actually watched it, and I thought it was silly. I remember learning that British politician Ann Widdecombe changed from Church of England to Roman Catholic, citing that the "ordination of women was the last straw", and I thought it was silly. Back then, actually putting effort into equal opportunity for all was called "political correctness gone mad" by those opposed to it — but I guess the attention span is no longer sufficient to use four-word-phrases as rhetorical applause lights, so y'all switched to a century old word coined by African Americans who wanted to make sure they didn't forget that the Civil War had only ended literal slavery, not changed the attitudes behind it. This history makes the word itself a very odd thing to encounter in Europe, where we didn't have that civil war — forced end of Empire shortly after World War 2, yes, but none of the memes from the breakaway regions of that era even made it back to this continent, and AFAICT "woke" wasn't one of them anyway. I only know I'm called a "mzungu" by Kenyans because of the person who got me to visit the place.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    You might be interested to learn that Trump's cabinet has at least 9 women, one of whom was the Governor of South Dakota, another who was an Attorney-General of Florida, and another who is a reserve duty Lieutenant-Colonel in the Army. Most Senate Democrats have voted against their respective confirmations, by the way. We are quite fine having women as leaders if they are actually competent and charismatic like it would be the case with men. Neither HRC nor Harris were that; the former was reviled and the latter couldn't even speak coherently. The Democrats can easily get a woman elected President if they would simply choose a good candidate with policies that resonate with the electorate.
  - ExoticPearTree 2y ago
    The current state if affairs is that the left want equality without competence. The EU is even more nuts with their plans that all big companies in the EU should have 50/50 men-women representation in the board of directors. Believe what you want, but America did not reject Hillary or Kamala because they were women, they rejected them because of their incompetence. And speaking of this, after seeing Kamala talk, it is beyond me how she got to be VP - not one coherent sentence comes out of her mouth.
smolder 2y ago
I think with a certain crowd just being obstinately oppositional buys you political points whether it's well reasoned or not. IOW they may be acting like jerks here to impress the lets-be-jerks lobby back home.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  Yeah I agree, they just threw a tantrum for their local audience. I wonder, why they just don't make AI generate these tantrums instead actually annoying everybody.
logicchains 2y ago
"eliminates biases in recruitment and does not exclude underrepresented groups" has turned out to basically mean "higher less qualified candidates in the name of more equitable outcomes", which is a very contentious position to take and one many Americans strongly oppose.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  In other words they get triggered from words that don't mean that thing. Sounds like EU should develop a politically correct language for Americans. That's synthetic Woke, which is ironic. I wonder if the new Woke should be called Neo-Woke, where you pretend to be mean to certain group of people to accommodate other group of people who suffered from accommodating another group of people. IMHO all this needs to be gone and just be like "don't discriminate, be fair" but hey I'm not the trend setter.
- optimalsolver 2y ago
  >higher less qualified candidates Ironique.
- rat87 2y ago
  No it means eliminates biases in recruitment and to not exclude underrepresented groups We still have massive biases against minorities in our countries. Some people prefer to pretend they don't exist so they can justify the current reality. Nothing related to Trump has anything to do with qualified candidates, Trump is the least qualified president we have ever had in american history. Not just because he hadn't served in government or as a general but because he is generally unaware about how government works and doesn't care to be informed.
michaelt 2y ago
> What's the point of rejecting this? Sustainable Development? Protect the environment? Promote social justice? Equitable access? Driving inclusive growth? Eliminating biases? Not excluding underrepresented groups? These are not the values the American people voted for. Americans selected a president who is against "equity", "inclusion" and "social justice", and who is more "roman salute" oriented. Of course this is all very disorienting to non-Americans, as a year or two ago efforts to do things like rename git master branches to main and blacklists to denylists also seemed to be driven by Americans. But that's just America's modern cultural dominance in action; it's a nation with the most pornographers and the most religious anti-porn campaigners at the same time; the home of Hollywood beauty standards, plastic surgery and bodybuilding, but also the home of fat acceptance and the country with the most obesity. So in a way, contradictory messages are nothing new.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >Americans selected a president who is against "equity", "inclusion" and "social justice" Indeed. Our American values are and always have been Equality, Pursuit of Happiness, and legal justice respectively, as declared in our Declaration of Independence[1] and Constitution[2], even if there were and will be complications along the way. Liberty is power, power is responsibility. Noone ever said living free was going to be easy, but everyone will say it's a fulfilling life. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Annotated_text_of_the_engrossed_declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_I... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_...
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    Then why don't you do all that but instead treating people who are in pursuit of happiness as criminals for example? Why do you need the paperwork and bureaucracy to let people pursue happiness? Why the people in the background are not entitled to it: https://a.dropoverapp.com/cloud/download/605909ce-5858-4c13-89cc-998f87b84028/4accf1b2-d491-4677-a42a-b8ed189be9c4 https://a.dropoverapp.com/cloud/download/605909ce-5858-4c13-... Why US government personel is being replaced with loyalist if you are about equality and legal justice?
tim333 2y ago
I think it's actually this https://www.elysee.fr/en/emmanuel-macron/2025/02/11/statement-on-inclusive-and-sustainable-artificial-intelligence-for-people-and-the-planet https://www.elysee.fr/en/emmanuel-macron/2025/02/11/statemen... although similar. So far most AI development has been things like OpenAI making the ChatGPT chatbot and putting it up there for people to play with, likewise Anthropic, Deepseek et all. I'm worried that declaration is implying you shouldn't be able to do that without trying to "promote social justice by ensuring equitable access to the benefits". I think that is over bureaucracizing things.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  Which part makes you think that?
  - tim333 2y ago
    The declarations are very vague as to what will actually be done other than declaring but I get the impression they want to make it more complicated just to put up a chatbot. I mean stuff like >We underline the need for a global reflection integrating inter alia questions of safety, sustainable development, innovation, respect of international laws including humanitarian law and human rights law and the protection of human rights, gender equality, linguistic diversity, protection of consumers and of intellectual property rights. Is quite hard to even parse. Does that mean you'll get grief for you bot speaking English becuase it's not protecting linguistic diversity? I don't know What does "Sustainable Artificial Intelligence" even mean? That you run it off solar rather than coal? Does it mean anything?
    - mrtksn 2y ago
      The whole text is just "We promise not to be a-holes" and doesn't demand any specific action anyway, let alone having any teeth. Useful only when you rejecting it. I'm sure in culture war torn American mind it signals very important things about genitals and ancestry and the industry around these stuff but in a non-American mind it gives you the vibes that the Americans intent to do bad things with AI. Ha, now I wonder if the people who wrote that were unaware of the situation in US or was that the outcome they expected. "Given that the Americans not promising not to use this tech for nefarious tasks maybe Europe should de-couple from them?"
marcusverus 2y ago
> What's the point of rejecting this? Seems like a show, just like the declaration itself. Both appear false to me, IMHO its just another instance of US signing off from the global world... Hear, hear. If Trump doesn't straighten up, the world might just opt for Chinese leadership. The dictatorship, the genocide, the communism--these are small things that can be overlooked if necessary to secure leadership that's committed to what really matters, which is.... signing pointless declarations.

by mrtksn 2y ago

ExoticPearTree 2y ago

[flagged]

jampekka 2y ago
Inclusive here means that the population at large benefits. But I guess that's woke now too.
- logicchains 2y ago
  It mentions "promoting diversity, tackling gender imbalances" which clearly indicates they're using "inclusive" in the woke sense of the word.
mrtksn 2y ago
US just needs to have their culture war done already. These words are not about the American petty fights but it appears that the new government is all for it. It's kind of fascinating actually how Americans turned the whole pop culture into genitalia regulations and racist wealth redistribution. Before that in EU we had all this stuff and wasn't a problem. These stuff were about minorities and minorities stuff don't bother most people as these are just accommodations for small number of people. I'm kind of getting sick and tired of pretending that stuff that concern %1 of the people are the mainstream thing. It's insufferable.
- hcurtiss 2y ago
  It's because people see the manifestation of racism implicit in these policies affecting their daily lives. And they're done with it, no matter how much the elites hand-wave "what's the big deal?" The insufferability runs entirely the other direction.
  - layer8 2y ago
    That’s mainly an American phenomenon, however.
    - hcurtiss 2y ago
      I'm not so sure. The acceptance of mass migration is rooted in many of the same principles, and push-back on that issue is fundamentally reshaping the political landscape in the UK and Europe.
      - Juliate 2y ago
        Is it? Not sure what some "politicians" (cough Farage) promised them would happen, happened. https://www.brunel.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/articles/Post-Brexit-UK-migration-trends-and-the-all-time-highs https://www.brunel.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/articles/Post-...
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      The rejection of woke ideals goes well beyond the US. The Japanese people also hate elements of woke getting into their culture and they don't even speak English.
      - Juliate 2y ago
        What are you telling about exactly?
        Dalewyn 2y ago
smolder 2y ago
"woke and DEI phrases"? The way you're using these as labels is embarrassingly shallow, and I would hope, beneath the level of discourse here.
- ExoticPearTree 2y ago
  It is not. And you must be new around here when it comes to the comments level.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - smolder 2y ago
    It definitely is shallow. It's on par with saying they used cringe language that is like, not a vibe. It doesn't mean anything concrete, and so it's impossible to rebuke and pointless to talk about.
    - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
      Do you mean this or the response to it? How does one respond to fluff like this? > AI’s workplace impact must align governance, social dialogue, innovation, trust, fairness, and public interest. We commit to advancing the AI Paris Summit agenda, reducing inequalities, promoting diversity, tackling gender imbalances, increasing training and human capital investment
- stackedinserter 2y ago
  Exactly, I prefer to call them "racist and discriminatory" too.
ben_w 2y ago
> tackling gender imbalances This being culturally rejected by the same America that has itself twice rejected women candidates for president in favour of a man who now has 34 felony convictions, does not surprise me. But it does disappoint me. I remember when the right wing were complaining about Star Trek having a woman as a captain for the first time with Voyager. That there had already been women admirals on screen by that point suggested they had not actually watched it, and I thought it was silly. I remember learning that British politician Ann Widdecombe changed from Church of England to Roman Catholic, citing that the "ordination of women was the last straw", and I thought it was silly. Back then, actually putting effort into equal opportunity for all was called "political correctness gone mad" by those opposed to it — but I guess the attention span is no longer sufficient to use four-word-phrases as rhetorical applause lights, so y'all switched to a century old word coined by African Americans who wanted to make sure they didn't forget that the Civil War had only ended literal slavery, not changed the attitudes behind it. This history makes the word itself a very odd thing to encounter in Europe, where we didn't have that civil war — forced end of Empire shortly after World War 2, yes, but none of the memes from the breakaway regions of that era even made it back to this continent, and AFAICT "woke" wasn't one of them anyway. I only know I'm called a "mzungu" by Kenyans because of the person who got me to visit the place.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  You might be interested to learn that Trump's cabinet has at least 9 women, one of whom was the Governor of South Dakota, another who was an Attorney-General of Florida, and another who is a reserve duty Lieutenant-Colonel in the Army. Most Senate Democrats have voted against their respective confirmations, by the way. We are quite fine having women as leaders if they are actually competent and charismatic like it would be the case with men. Neither HRC nor Harris were that; the former was reviled and the latter couldn't even speak coherently. The Democrats can easily get a woman elected President if they would simply choose a good candidate with policies that resonate with the electorate.
- ExoticPearTree 2y ago
  The current state if affairs is that the left want equality without competence. The EU is even more nuts with their plans that all big companies in the EU should have 50/50 men-women representation in the board of directors. Believe what you want, but America did not reject Hillary or Kamala because they were women, they rejected them because of their incompetence. And speaking of this, after seeing Kamala talk, it is beyond me how she got to be VP - not one coherent sentence comes out of her mouth.

smolder 2y ago

I think with a certain crowd just being obstinately oppositional buys you political points whether it's well reasoned or not. IOW they may be acting like jerks here to impress the lets-be-jerks lobby back home.

mrtksn 2y ago
Yeah I agree, they just threw a tantrum for their local audience. I wonder, why they just don't make AI generate these tantrums instead actually annoying everybody.

logicchains 2y ago

"eliminates biases in recruitment and does not exclude underrepresented groups" has turned out to basically mean "higher less qualified candidates in the name of more equitable outcomes", which is a very contentious position to take and one many Americans strongly oppose.

mrtksn 2y ago
In other words they get triggered from words that don't mean that thing. Sounds like EU should develop a politically correct language for Americans. That's synthetic Woke, which is ironic. I wonder if the new Woke should be called Neo-Woke, where you pretend to be mean to certain group of people to accommodate other group of people who suffered from accommodating another group of people. IMHO all this needs to be gone and just be like "don't discriminate, be fair" but hey I'm not the trend setter.
optimalsolver 2y ago
>higher less qualified candidates Ironique.
rat87 2y ago
No it means eliminates biases in recruitment and to not exclude underrepresented groups We still have massive biases against minorities in our countries. Some people prefer to pretend they don't exist so they can justify the current reality. Nothing related to Trump has anything to do with qualified candidates, Trump is the least qualified president we have ever had in american history. Not just because he hadn't served in government or as a general but because he is generally unaware about how government works and doesn't care to be informed.

michaelt 2y ago

> What's the point of rejecting this? Sustainable Development? Protect the environment? Promote social justice? Equitable access? Driving inclusive growth? Eliminating biases? Not excluding underrepresented groups? These are not the values the American people voted for. Americans selected a president who is against "equity", "inclusion" and "social justice", and who is more "roman salute" oriented. Of course this is all very disorienting to non-Americans, as a year or two ago efforts to do things like rename git master branches to main and blacklists to denylists also seemed to be driven by Americans. But that's just America's modern cultural dominance in action; it's a nation with the most pornographers and the most religious anti-porn campaigners at the same time; the home of Hollywood beauty standards, plastic surgery and bodybuilding, but also the home of fat acceptance and the country with the most obesity. So in a way, contradictory messages are nothing new.

Dalewyn 2y ago
>Americans selected a president who is against "equity", "inclusion" and "social justice" Indeed. Our American values are and always have been Equality, Pursuit of Happiness, and legal justice respectively, as declared in our Declaration of Independence[1] and Constitution[2], even if there were and will be complications along the way. Liberty is power, power is responsibility. Noone ever said living free was going to be easy, but everyone will say it's a fulfilling life. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Annotated_text_of_the_engrossed_declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_I... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_...
- mrtksn 2y ago
  Then why don't you do all that but instead treating people who are in pursuit of happiness as criminals for example? Why do you need the paperwork and bureaucracy to let people pursue happiness? Why the people in the background are not entitled to it: https://a.dropoverapp.com/cloud/download/605909ce-5858-4c13-89cc-998f87b84028/4accf1b2-d491-4677-a42a-b8ed189be9c4 https://a.dropoverapp.com/cloud/download/605909ce-5858-4c13-... Why US government personel is being replaced with loyalist if you are about equality and legal justice?

tim333 2y ago

I think it's actually this https://www.elysee.fr/en/emmanuel-macron/2025/02/11/statement-on-inclusive-and-sustainable-artificial-intelligence-for-people-and-the-planet https://www.elysee.fr/en/emmanuel-macron/2025/02/11/statemen... although similar. So far most AI development has been things like OpenAI making the ChatGPT chatbot and putting it up there for people to play with, likewise Anthropic, Deepseek et all. I'm worried that declaration is implying you shouldn't be able to do that without trying to "promote social justice by ensuring equitable access to the benefits". I think that is over bureaucracizing things.

mrtksn 2y ago
Which part makes you think that?
- tim333 2y ago
  The declarations are very vague as to what will actually be done other than declaring but I get the impression they want to make it more complicated just to put up a chatbot. I mean stuff like >We underline the need for a global reflection integrating inter alia questions of safety, sustainable development, innovation, respect of international laws including humanitarian law and human rights law and the protection of human rights, gender equality, linguistic diversity, protection of consumers and of intellectual property rights. Is quite hard to even parse. Does that mean you'll get grief for you bot speaking English becuase it's not protecting linguistic diversity? I don't know What does "Sustainable Artificial Intelligence" even mean? That you run it off solar rather than coal? Does it mean anything?
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    The whole text is just "We promise not to be a-holes" and doesn't demand any specific action anyway, let alone having any teeth. Useful only when you rejecting it. I'm sure in culture war torn American mind it signals very important things about genitals and ancestry and the industry around these stuff but in a non-American mind it gives you the vibes that the Americans intent to do bad things with AI. Ha, now I wonder if the people who wrote that were unaware of the situation in US or was that the outcome they expected. "Given that the Americans not promising not to use this tech for nefarious tasks maybe Europe should de-couple from them?"

marcusverus 2y ago

> What's the point of rejecting this? Seems like a show, just like the declaration itself. Both appear false to me, IMHO its just another instance of US signing off from the global world... Hear, hear. If Trump doesn't straighten up, the world might just opt for Chinese leadership. The dictatorship, the genocide, the communism--these are small things that can be overlooked if necessary to secure leadership that's committed to what really matters, which is.... signing pointless declarations.